Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 09:23

rmr_22 wrote:Hello, for a long time I read this forum and I have decided to write.
Sorry for my English, the translators help but they are not perfect ...


Welcome here, nice post and don't worry about your English as it's definitely good enough! :)

rmr_22 wrote:To begin with it seems that everyone agrees that geometrically the F-22 wins. Also, when Jeff Babione (chief program F-22) was asked about applying the coatings of the F-35 to the Raptor he said they would reduce the maintenance price and resistance but also said they would not change the RCS.


I don't think everyone agrees that geometrically F-22 wins. F-22 is geometrically simpler design from stealth PoV (not otherwise!), but it's really tough to say which one is better for low RCS. F-35 was designed significantly later than F-22 and benefited from knowledge gained from development of F-22 and also better development tools (more powerful computers, better design software). It could then have more complex geometry while having equal or lower RCS. It's also significantly smaller aircraft physically and that would reduce RCS if the designs were otherwise equal. There simply is smaller area reflecting radar signals.

rmr_22 wrote:Another interesting thing is to analyze the exact words of Gen. Mike Hostage and later of Bogdan:

-"but it can beat the F-22 in stealth"

It is very strange that he uses the word "can". It is not a categorical statement, it only expresses possibility.


That is likely because stealth is very complex issue. There are different radar wavelenghts which act differently on different designs. So at some wavelength F-35 might have smaller RCS and in some other it could be F-22.

Then there are endless aspect angles in different target elevation and azimuth angles. RCS will be very different in different aspect angles for both aircraft. There are definitely angles where F-35 will have smaller RCS than F-22 due to smaller size (viewed directly from above or below for example).

Of course then there is other electromagnetic wavelengths like different infra-red bands or visible light band. It's pretty probable that F-35 will have smaller IR signature when both are going at subsonic speeds. It has only one high bypass engine whereas F-22 has two low bypass engines. I'd say that at supersonic speeds supercruising F-22 is going to have significantly lower IR signature than F-35 which needs AB to stay at those speeds.

Stealth also incorporates EM emission control and F-35 might have slight edge here due to later design of avionics systems. Having IRST/FLIR system definitely allows for less EM emissions needed.

rmr_22 wrote:-"I would say that General Hostage … is accurate in his statement about the simple stealthiness of the F-35 [with regard] to other airplanes,"

"I would say" is another statement not conclusive.
"to other airplanes" Strange but he speaks in the plural, when he has been asked exclusively about the F-22.


Maybe he was trying to say that F-35 is stealthier than any other fighter jet, including F-22.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 10:32

zero-one wrote:Well look at it this way.
Japan will spend gobbles and gobbles of money no matter what route they take if they want to deter China.
And unlike most countries they can actually do that. (bigger Economy than any European country)

They tried doing it alone with their ATD-X
it didn't look good.
This proposal by Lockheed to make a Raptor/Lightning Hybrid could just be another option on the table.
If it doesn't work out they'll probably try another approach.

Gen. Hostage's interview was pretty straight forward to me. It only becomes confusing when I try not to accept the fact that the F-22 is better than the F-35.

He said the F-35 can beat the F-22 in Stealth, but then again he says that it takes 8 F-35's to match 2 F-22s.
Why?
Well in the first place he said that "Stealth is not everything"

He used the word "site" which could mean he is referring to a ground target, stationary to be exact. Well the F-35 has better targeting systems for ground targets.
But what he could mean is that an F-22 is more invulnerable to both Air and Ground threats and will not need as many escorts or support as an F-35 Strike package.



Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 10:55

zero-one wrote:Well look at it this way.
Japan will spend gobbles and gobbles of money no matter what route they take if they want to deter China.
And unlike most countries they can actually do that. (bigger Economy than any European country)


But they are not spending that much money for their military. Their military budget is roughly the same as in France or Germany. They could spend much more, but there is no indication that they will increase their military spending significantly.

zero-one wrote:Gen. Hostage's interview was pretty straight forward to me. It only becomes confusing when I try not to accept the fact that the F-22 is better than the F-35.

He said the F-35 can beat the F-22 in Stealth, but then again he says that it takes 8 F-35's to match 2 F-22s.
Why?
Well in the first place he said that "Stealth is not everything"

He used the word "site" which could mean he is referring to a ground target, stationary to be exact. Well the F-35 has better targeting systems for ground targets.
But what he could mean is that an F-22 is more invulnerable to both Air and Ground threats and will not need as many escorts or support as an F-35 Strike package.


I think it's pretty confusing as I can't tell what General Hostage himself said and what are claims or comments made by the journalist making the interview. It's clear that some comments and claims are made by the journalist and not by Hostage. Some are not clear at all and I suspect many are made by the journalist or possibly taken out of context. Like he also said that "But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform". How can F-35s be more effective against same site?

Also F-22 probably is better individually at some things like many air-to-air missions or striking some fixed or semi-fixed targets using hit-and-run tactics like Hostage seemed to indicate. But how much better it is and is a force of F-22s more effective than a force of F-35s? Especially when considering costs of building a wothwhile force of F-22 derivatives these days. F-35 is definitely much better multi-role platform and IMO that's what Japan need much more than dedicate air-to-air platform.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 11:14

Corsair1963 wrote:Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?


Old doesn't make it invalid. Unless they added a revolutionary new capability to the F-35 since 2014, the statements will hold true.

And its not just Gen. Hostage, pretty much every comparison between the F-22 and F-35 in an air to air scenario resulted in

1. They complement each other
2. They are both dominant

but sometimes we get
3. The F-22 is superior since it was designed specifically for A-A.

This shouldn't be a surprise because that is what it was originally intended to be
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/milita ... ghter.html
Lockheed Martin has said that the F-35 should be second only to the F-22 Raptor while in the air.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 12:32

Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.
Last edited by madrat on 30 Aug 2018, 02:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 13:01

vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 15:35

hornetfinn wrote:
Welcome here, nice post and don't worry about your English as it's definitely good enough! :)



Thank you!

One theory that would explain everything is that the difference is that the coatings of the F-22 are effective in X band and weak in UHF / VHF while the coatings of the F-35 are equally effective in all frequencies.

This would explain why in A2A 8 F-35s are needed to equal 2 F-22 since in the X band of the APG-77/81 the Raptor is the first to detect, shoot and kill, while on the other hand, in A2G against low-frequency ground radars F-35 has better RCS.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 18:14

sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.


The JASDF F-2 wing is co-cured. Spars, ribs, and lower skin are co-cured, with upper skin bolted on for access to internal components.
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Unread post29 Aug 2018, 18:24

johnwill wrote:
sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:Guys, forget it.
The F-22 production is over and done with.

Next big thing in airframe design and building is 3D printing pretty large parts like a wing at a time.


They have a LONG way to go before we're there. They don't even co-cure large parts like complete wings yet.


The JASDF F-2 wing is co-cured. Spars, ribs, and lower skin are co-cured, with upper skin bolted on for access to internal components.


I stand corrected. That's actually pretty interesting.

http://www.iccm-central.org/Proceedings ... r-1364.pdf
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Unread post30 Aug 2018, 02:18

madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



Your dreaming as they will never put the F-22 back into production. Let alone develop a new fighter based on its design... :doh:
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Unread post30 Aug 2018, 02:42

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Your reading way to much into General Hostage's interview. Which, is both old and outdated.... :?


Old doesn't make it invalid. Unless they added a revolutionary new capability to the F-35 since 2014, the statements will hold true.

And its not just Gen. Hostage, pretty much every comparison between the F-22 and F-35 in an air to air scenario resulted in

1. They complement each other
2. They are both dominant

but sometimes we get
3. The F-22 is superior since it was designed specifically for A-A.

This shouldn't be a surprise because that is what it was originally intended to be
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/milita ... ghter.html
Lockheed Martin has said that the F-35 should be second only to the F-22 Raptor while in the air.


Honestly, your wasting our time with such sources. Yet, if you can find a source like Lt. Colonel David “Chip” Berke (Ret) or Colonel Paul "MAX" Moga. Which, would supports your case. I would be interested........(Note: The latter two have considerable experience in both the F-22 and F-35.)
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Unread post30 Aug 2018, 07:03



Much appreciate the .pdf posting. I worked on F-2 structural flight test in Japan for a year and a half around '99, but was kept in semi-darkness about many of the details of structural development. The Japanese were personally really great to work with, but somewhat reserved when discussing structural problems with me. No matter, it was a memorable time in my life.
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Unread post30 Aug 2018, 21:37

Still going on about Hostage and F-22s? :bang: :bang:

madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



I think when the bill comes due for that you don't save any money. That was another thing I was told killed the "export" Raptor as much as OBEY. By the time you had replaced all the secret sauce, watered down everything else, it might as well be a new airplane.


My hair brain idea is you get a new center fueslage, everything forward of this bulkhead is F-35A:

Image

Then you stretch the center fuselage a few feet, reduce the cross section aft of the intakes add fuel wherever you don't have small missile bays and then go with Pelican tail or Canards or F-35 layout. And the rear surfaces are BIG. Stop short of thrust vectoring if you care about costs. F135 engine. maintains at least some commonality with F-35 at least. with the engine, sensors, and front section.

Examples from KFX to show what I am angling at.

Image

Image


but again this is all me. i have no idea what japan would do based on budgets and requirements and what they actually have the fortitude to try.

I guess my idea would be similar to the Super Hornet or Gripen NG. A "super F-35" optimized for high altitude air combat while hopefully maintaining more commonality than Legacy to super Hornet did. fuselage made bigger for more fuel. etc
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Unread post31 Aug 2018, 01:01

Lockmart wants everyone to have one.

https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/
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Unread post31 Aug 2018, 13:06

Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:Japan can be given aid in building a stealth fighter that is superior to J-20 (or Su-57) without giving it a truly F-22A class fighter. If you re-plumb F-22's shell for F135 engines and then build around F-22 subsystems, especially parts we have to maintain regardless of the gee-whiz secret sauce, then it makes F-22A more sustainable. Maybe you even use the export version to support F-22A upgrades in cockpit displays, ejectors, etc. And you might be able to speed up weapon integration that hasn't been done to this point for lack of funds.



Your dreaming as they will never put the F-22 back into production. Let alone develop a new fighter based on its design... :doh:


Apparently the idea is being pitched to the USAF:

"Lockheed Martin is quietly pitching the U.S. Air Force a new variant of the F-22 Raptor, equipped with the F-35’s more modern mission avionics and some structural changes, Defense One has learned.

It is one of several options being shopped to the U.S. military and allies as Lockheed explores how it might upgrade its combat jets to counter Russian and Chinese threats anticipated by military officials in the coming decade, according to people with direct knowledge of the plan.

“You’re building a hybrid aircraft,” David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general who is now dean of the Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies. “It’s not an F-22. It’s not an F-35. It’s a combination thereof. That can be done much, much more rapidly than introducing a new design.”

The new variant — similar to one Lockheed is pitching to Japan — would incorporate the F-35’s more modern mission system and “other advancements in the stealth coatings and things of that nature,” according to a person familiar with the proposal. "

https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... ce/150943/

Main problem is the F119 is out of production IIRC. (No, the F135 would not be an adequate substitute.)
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