SU-57: On hold for a decade

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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wrightwing

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Unread post29 Jul 2019, 23:47

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22 and F-35 had production representative engines, avionics/sensors, software, signature reduction/management, etc.... unlike the Su-57.

With lifetime upgrade paths already lined out. Lessons learned from the F-16 IMO.

Yep. There's no telling when a fully production representative Su-57 will be seen, with engines, sensor fusion software, AESA radar, OLS-50, additional refinements in shaping/RAM.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jul 2019, 02:57

southerncross wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, the "spin" is no longer cutting it. As the Su-57 is frankly a failure...
I suggest some forget the propaganda from RT, TASS, and Sputnik and move into the real world. (just saying)


I was just trying to separate a bit the actual information about the program from all the hearsay, then everybody can decide by themselves if the plane is a failure or not etc. But there is remarkably little information available about it and a lot of space for speculation, that is true.

mixelflick wrote:The whole thing is spin. Ever since day 1 it was the Raptorski super-plane that was going to be in service no later than 2013. Probably sooner. Exept um, nope. 2015 now. Nope. 2016 and so forth until now we're being told 76 will be in service by 2028.


It enters service this year, finally. Are 76 units enough in almost ten years? Surely they are not impressive numbers but there was never talk about more than 200-250 units.

This new forecasting is much better, because it gives them slack to hide behind any further delays for another 9 years. The only reason India MIGHT buy it is... there's no other alternative. They're not getting the F-35 or J/C-31 so the SU-57 is it. And that's at least a good 10 years away.


Su-57 is for Russian air force. If anybody else buys it is a plus, they will receive a monkey model or a co-development with their own subsystems. Customer and author of the plane's set of requirements is the VKS.

India does not seem to be in a hurry in any case, they are still deciding whether they buy fighters of 4.5 gen and they don't know still under which requirements...

In 10 years time I predict India will be much closer to the West. Perhaps by then the F-35 will be offered to them, and it'll probably be flying with an even more powerful engine.


This is a bit of speculation but we will see. Last news have it that they will establish a mechanism with Russia to pay weapons in domestic currencies so you can say they definitely play both sides.



:lmao:
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mixelflick

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Unread post30 Jul 2019, 13:02

Properly positioned, this about face insofar as "mass production" might be useful. If I was the USAF, I'd be in Congress's ear about how Russia is "accelerating their 6th gen fighter acquisition plans..". In fact, they are rolling off production lines as we speak. Which means..

1.) We need to ditch the F-15EX in favor of more F-35's; and..
2.) Accelerate our own 6th gen fighter acquisition plans

There is lots of speculation as to why Russia is doing this. One school of thought is that they recieved intelligence briefings that the US 6th gen program was farther along than first thought. I rather doubt that though, as even if it is true there's this matter of paying for it. More likely, they're trying to get a jump on the Chinese in the export market. With the J-20 staying in China and the F/C-31 still mired in developmental issues, the SU-57 could be pitched as "6th gen, ready today for your air force".

Of course that isn't true, but pleny of nations would likely fall for it. Hell, even Gripen has a few export orders LOL..
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Corsair1963

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 01:09

mixelflick wrote:Properly positioned, this about face insofar as "mass production" might be useful. If I was the USAF, I'd be in Congress's ear about how Russia is "accelerating their 6th gen fighter acquisition plans..". In fact, they are rolling off production lines as we speak. Which means..

1.) We need to ditch the F-15EX in favor of more F-35's; and..
2.) Accelerate our own 6th gen fighter acquisition plans

There is lots of speculation as to why Russia is doing this. One school of thought is that they recieved intelligence briefings that the US 6th gen program was farther along than first thought. I rather doubt that though, as even if it is true there's this matter of paying for it. More likely, they're trying to get a jump on the Chinese in the export market. With the J-20 staying in China and the F/C-31 still mired in developmental issues, the SU-57 could be pitched as "6th gen, ready today for your air force".

Of course that isn't true, but pleny of nations would likely fall for it. Hell, even Gripen has a few export orders LOL..


I don't see the US Military playing up the Su-57. As there is little respect for it among most Defense Experts. So, expect them to push the J-20 and/or J-31 as the real "elephant in the room". In order to keep the Military Industrial Complex fueled...
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milosh

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 06:54

mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 07:13

milosh wrote:
Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.



Realistically, when can we expect to see a mature production ready izdeliye 30??? :?
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milosh

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 07:52

Corsair1963 wrote:Realistically, when can we expect to see a mature production ready izdeliye 30??? :?


Eariler then WS-13 or what engine Chinese are planing for J-31, right now J-31 is flying with RD-93 which is same as 1980s RD-33:
Image
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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 08:20

milosh wrote:
Eariler then WS-13 or what engine Chinese are planing for J-31, right now J-31 is flying with RD-93 which is same as 1980s RD-33:



Funny, that Russian Engines are good enough in Russian Aircraft. Yet, somehow are lacking when equipped in Chinese Aircraft. (funny on how that works) :lmao:



That said, while China is hardly a match for Western Engine Manufactures at this stage. They're making good progress nonetheless....The WS-10 is finally settling down and is becoming a mainstay of the PLAAF.

As for future designs like the WS-13 and WS-15 little is actually known? So, I guess we will have to wait and see...


Yet, I think it's safe to say that China will likely surpass Russia in the engine department in the next 10-20 years. Something the Russians are just going to have to learn to except....
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milosh

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 10:25

Corsair1963 wrote:Funny, that Russian Engines are good enough in Russian Aircraft. Yet, somehow are lacking when equipped in Chinese Aircraft. (funny on how that works) :lmao:


You really need to inform more.

Russians in MiG-29K and MiG-35 don't use that coal burning engine. They are using RD-33MK, more thurst and service life then RD-93 Chinese are buying from Russians for JF-17 and J-31 as we can see based on how much smoke it generate.

Btw Chinese are talking about WS-13 when JF-17 was presented, they are always couple years from production.
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mixelflick

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 13:17

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.


Let's see...

You have the stock SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.

It's true the SU-57 is more straightforward, but likely only because its so early in its evolution. They'll have the current SU-57 with 1st gen engines, the follow on with so called "stage 2" engines and there's been talk that the tricked out "6th gen" version will be named SU-60. You could also make a very good case the SU-57 is an evolution of the Flanker design too, given they carried through the widely spaced engine nacelles, "tunnel" and other features. In fact, when viewed from the top, it looks like someone stepped on a Flanker..
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mixelflick

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 13:24

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, it seems to be a very inefficent way of introducing airframes into service. If this follows the evolution of the Flanker (and it sure looks like it), Russia's armed forces will have half a dozen versions of a small number, meaning it'll be a logistical nightmare.


Dozen versions? What dozen version of Flanker exist?

Su-27, Su-30 and Su-35 that is what they have. Su-34 is based on Flanker but is noticable different. All use same engines, weapons and many share same electronics.

In case of Su-57 things are even more simpler. Only difference be in engine when new engine is ready. Su-57 v0.5 will get same engine when time for engine replacement came.

Su-57 will be used as upgrade to Flanker fleet domestic and worldwide which will cut cost. Imagine if F135 could be install in F-15, F-16 or F-22.


Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.

It's true the SU-57 is more straightforward, but likely only because its so early in its evolution. They'll have the current SU-57 with 1st gen engines, the follow on with so called "stage 2" engines and there's been talk that the tricked out "6th gen" version will be named SU-60. You could also make a very good case the SU-57 is an evolution of the Flanker design too, given they carried through the widely spaced engine nacelles, "tunnel" and other features. In fact, when viewed from the top, it looks like someone stepped on a Flanker..
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milosh

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 14:06

mixelflick wrote:Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.


You can't count Su-27SM variants as different planes, in fact SM2 didn't happen because of Su-35. SM and SM3 are upgrades. Of course they are going to use Su-27 and upgrade when Su-27 is young and plane is quite capable and excellent for upgrades.

So if we stick with fighters in production right now you have only Su-30 and Su-35. Su-34 I don't nor Russians count as fighter. It is bomber which role is replace Su-24 and for some missions Tu-22.

Su-30 for russian AF will look more and more as two seater Su-35:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 0-flankers

So it will be more like one fighter in two versions.
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sferrin

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Unread post31 Jul 2019, 17:19

mixelflick wrote:Let's see...

You have the SU-27SM, the SU-27SM2, the SU-27SM3, SU-30SM, SU-30SM2, the SU-33, SU-34 (undeniably a Flanker) and SU-35. So not a dozen true, but nonetheless - 8. That' doesn't include the earlier SU-27's prior to the SM/SM2/SM3's coming online, which does bring it close to a dozen.


You forgot the original Su-35, SU-35UB and the Su-37.

"The first variant was designed during the 1980s as an improvement on the Su-27 and was known as the Su-27M. This derivative incorporated canards and a multi-function radar that transformed the aircraft into a multi-role aircraft, which was structurally reinforced to cope with its greater weight. The first prototype made its maiden flight in June 1988. The first prototype made its maiden flight in June 1988. As the aircraft was not mass-produced due to the Dissolution of the Soviet Union, Sukhoi re-designated the aircraft as Su-35 to attract export orders. The fourteen aircraft produced were used for tests and demonstrations; one example had thrust-vectoring engines and the resultant Su-37 was used as a technology demonstrator. A sole Su-35UB two-seat trainer was also built in the late 1990s that resembled the Su-30MK family."
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Unread post01 Aug 2019, 06:56

Export variants? Add a K and variant numbers multiply.
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sferrin

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Unread post01 Aug 2019, 12:47

weasel1962 wrote:Export variants? Add a K and variant numbers multiply.


Su-30MKI & MKK for starters.
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