TFX Thread

[airforces_freak]

Turkey confirms TF-X will be Twin Engined: http://en.c4defence.com/Agenda/ssm-s-tw ... ing/3860/1

FX-1 Design also chosen.

[airforces_freak]

Turkey to display model of TF-X at IDEF 2017 fair in Turkey this week.

[mixelflick]

Can someone (anyone?) come up with a stealth fighter that doesn't look like an F-22/35 or another nations entry?

Oh wait a minute, LOL. The Iranians did! That's right everyone, the whole world laughed when they debuted their "stealth" fighter. But it wasn't a PAK FA, which borrows heavily from the YF-23a IMO. And it's not a J-31, which looks suspiciously like an F-35. Nor is it a J-20, which itself appears to be heavily influenced by the Mig !.42/44

Of course, I'm aware certain stealth features are similar. Perhaps that drives these designs. It is increasingly apparent to me though that the U.S. and Russia are far and away masters of the airframe. Weapons, engines, avionics, "stealth" and situational awareness also appear to be our forte', although I expect China to catch up in those areas quickly.

But credit given where it's due: Those Iranians are innovators!

[maro.kyo]

Can someone (anyone?) come up with a stealth fighter that doesn't look like an F-22/35 or another nations entry?

Oh wait a minute, LOL. The Iranians did! That's right everyone, the whole world laughed when they debuted their "stealth" fighter. But it wasn't a PAK FA, which borrows heavily from the YF-23a IMO. And it's not a J-31, which looks suspiciously like an F-35. Nor is it a J-20, which itself appears to be heavily influenced by the Mig !.42/44

Of course, I'm aware certain stealth features are similar. Perhaps that drives these designs. It is increasingly apparent to me though that the U.S. and Russia are far and away masters of the airframe. Weapons, engines, avionics, "stealth" and situational awareness also appear to be our forte', although I expect China to catch up in those areas quickly.

But credit given where it's due: Those Iranians are innovators!

hmmm... maybe the 25dmu? well still looks like some F-15 + F-22 + YF-23 tho looks far different compared to KF-X or TF-X

[airforces_freak]

And the engine for the TF-X has been chosen. A new aircraft engine to be developed by Rolls-Royce and Kale Group using the EJ-200 as a base will power the new air superiority fighter. Rolls-Royce has described the engine as "next-generation".

BUSINESS NEWS | Mon May 8, 2017 | 8:59am BST

Rolls-Royce, Turkey's Kale Group to set up aircraft engine JV

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-tur...-idUKKBN1840MV

Turkey's Kale Group will set up a joint venture company with UK-based engineering firm Rolls-Royce to develop aircraft engines, including for Turkey's planned TF-X fighter jet, the company said on Monday.

Kale will hold 51 percent stake in the joint venture, while Rolls-Royce will have the rest, the statement said.

Kale said it aimed to develop both civilian and military aircraft engines, including for the TF-X, being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), one of several major defence projects which Ankara has launched.

In January, Britain and Turkey signed a defence deal worth more than 100 million pounds to develop Turkish fighter jets during a visit to Ankara by Prime Minister Theresa May.

The deal involves BAE Systems and TAI working together on the TF-X, which will be the first Turkish-made fighter jet and will replace the F-16 fighter fleet starting from the 2020s.

Kale Group is a provider of structural components, assemblies and kits to the aerospace industry, according to its web site.

(Reporting by Can Sezer; Writing by Humeyra Pamuk and Daren Butler; Editing by David Dolan)

Turkey’s Kale, Rolls-Royce To Produce TF-X Fighter Jet Engines
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19221/ ... RBtWFKB3Vo

Turkey's Kale group will a launch a joint venture with UK's Rolls-Royce to develop and manufacture engines for fighter jet TF-X that is being developed locally.

The joint venture will be established by Kale and Rolls-Royce with 51 percent and 49 percent shares, respectively, Daily Sabah reported Monday.
Kale Group aims to develop jet engines for civilian and military use, especially for the Turkey's domestically-built fighter jet project TF-X.
Rolls-Royce previously declared its interest in the TF-X project, and the company CEO Warren East visited Turkey in October 2016 for the company's possible role in the project.

The TF-X project has turned to be of crucial importance in replacing the ageing F-16 fighter jets, which form the backbone of Turkish Air Force. The first batch of the jets are expected to be delivered by 2023.

Kale is already in a partnership with US aerospace giant Pratt & Whitney and the joint venture produces F-135 engine parts of F-35 fighter jets.
Group company Kale Aviation also supplies structural parts and sub-assembly services to civilian and military aviation giants including Boeing, Airbus, Spirit, Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin.

The TAI TFX is a twin-engine, all-weather fifth-generation Turkish aerial superiority fighter jet being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) with technological assistance from BAE Systems of the United Kingdom.

The aircraft is scheduled to replace the Turkish Air Force's F-16s and is being planned to be offered to foreign air forces as well. The project is one of many ongoing military projects in Turkey.

[marsavian]

General Electric beats Rolls-Royce to power Turkey’s indigenous fighter jet

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... ghter-jet/



The twin-engine TF-X will be powered by the F110-GE-129, left, or the F110-GE-132 engine.

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s aerospace authorities have chosen General Electric’s F110 family of engines to power the prototype and an initial batch of what will become Turkey’s first indigenous fighter jet, the TF-X.

A senior procurement official confirmed the choice, saying that the twin-engine TF-X will be powered by the F110-GE-129 or the F110-GE-132 engine.

“This is a stopgap solution until we have built our indigenous engine for the TF-X,” the official said.

Under the deal, the first prototype of the TF-X and an unknown number of initial batches would be powered by the F110 engine.

Turkey then plans to switch to an engine to be developed by TRMotor, a national engine consortium.

But some aerospace sources say the F110 may not be the ideal engine for a fifth=generation fighter. “If the Turks go for the GE option, they will have to compromise on the stealth capabilities of the TF-X,” a Paris-based defense specialist said.

Earlier this year, Turkey and Rolls-Royce came close to a strategic cooperation deal for the development and co-production of an engine for the TF-X. The British company and the Turkish government signed a letter of intent to finalize negotiations on the engine program by July 31, but the plan did not come to fruition.

Turkish officials say the idea behind the GE deal is to rely on foreign technology to eventually in the long term build an indigenous engine to power the TF-X.

Turkey wants to build the TF-X with know-how from BAE Systems. In January 2017, Britain and Turkey signed a deal worth more than £100 million (U.S. $128 million) to develop the Turkish fighter jet.

Turkey hopes to have the first test flights of the aircraft in 2023.

[Corsair1963]

Then the TFX is going to be much closer in size and shape to the F-22. Unlike something like the KFX or AMCA. Which, would be midsized and use engines like the F414 or EJ400....

[mixelflick]

Does anyone here really think this is going to happen?

Let's say we assign percentages. Personally, I feel it's less than 50%. Others?

[marsavian]

80-90%. Looks like they are going ahead with the S-400 so it's debatable whether they will ever receive their F-35s now depending on their rhetoric and President/Congress mood. TFX doesn't have to be as stealthy as F-22 just not as unstealthy as F-15. With BAE's help they should be able to get to the Su-57 0.1-1 sq m ballpark.

[sferrin]

I am surprised with the engine. I'd think they'd go with an AL-31 or WS-10/20. (Not that the US engines are bad but that the .gov could just say, "seeeee ya" anytime they wanted.)

[mixelflick]

80-90%. Looks like they are going ahead with the S-400 so it's debatable whether they will ever receive their F-35s now depending on their rhetoric and President/Congress mood. TFX doesn't have to be as stealthy as F-22 just not as unstealthy as F-15. With BAE's help they should be able to get to the Su-57 0.1-1 sq m ballpark.

Wow, that high? Well, let's analyze it...

Provided BAE has the know-how, this could get quite interesting. Why they chose the F-110 as an interim engine is bizarre. They've already seen how dicey relying on American equipment can get with the F-35 situation. And just for the record, if I was a major contributor to F-35 development, I'd be furious right now. Be that as it may..

If they come up with something akin to SU-57 like stealth, but considerably cheaper and multi-role... would India be interested? I'm assuming they can't get the F-35, and the SU-57 either doesn't meet their needs or its prohibitively expensive. Potential customers would also be ME arab nations. And hey, now that we know it'll be twin engined, maybe Canada would be interested?!

In 20 years their acquisition malpractice should be reaching its apex, and they can finally pull the trigger on a fighter to replace their F-18A/B second hand Hornets

[sferrin]

And just for the record, if I was a major contributor to F-35 development, I'd be furious right now.

They have only themselves to blame. It's not the US's fault Turkey shot themselves in the head.

[marsavian]

If they come up with something akin to SU-57 like stealth, but considerably cheaper and multi-role... would India be interested? I'm assuming they can't get the F-35, and the SU-57 either doesn't meet their needs or its prohibitively expensive. Potential customers would also be ME arab nations. And hey, now that we know it'll be twin engined, maybe Canada would be interested?!

Yes, it could be in play for ME nations/India/Muslim countries if any good or cheap. However will it be more like a stealthy Mig-31 than a stealthy F-15 ? Sure the Turks will buy it but will it be good enough overall to compete against all the (semi-) stealthy export competition when it arrives ? TBD. Also the US can veto sales with a GE engine so they will need to make a completely native variant for export to anyone.

[hephaestusaetnaean]

Turkey and UK battle to save fighter jet project
LAURA PITEL JUNE 13, 2018
https://outline.com/rgHgg8
https://www.ft.com/content/9b6d7af6-6d6 ... 13e5c92914

- UK wants to develop its trading relationship with Ankara
- Turkish officials demand that Rolls-Royce shares sensitive technology
- High-level ministerial discussions attempt to resolve issue

Turkish and UK ministers are battling to save a flagship partnership to develop a fifth generation fighter jet.

Rolls-Royce, the British aero-engine group, has been working with Turkish industrial giant Kale to bid for the engine development contract on the TF-X jet, an ambitious project to produce Turkey’s first indigenous combat aircraft.

A dispute has emerged over the role of a company with close ties to Qatar and Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The programme is a priority for President Erdogan, who wants to build a national defence industry to drum up nationalist support and reduce Turkey’s reliance on outsiders amid growing strains with many Nato allies.

It is also crucial for the UK, which wants to develop its trading relationship with Turkey and sees the partnership as key to preserving Britain’s ability to develop military aircraft given the dearth of UK fighter programmes once production of the Typhoon combat jet comes to an end in the mid 2020s.

Technology sharing raises concerns
On a visit to Turkey in January 2017, Theresa May said the fighter jet partnership marked “the start of a new and deeper trading relationship with Turkey and will potentially secure British and Turkish jobs and prosperity for decades to come”.

However, the project has run into problems after Turkish defence officials demanded that Rolls-Royce share sensitive technology with TR Motor, a company that is 55 per cent controlled by a subsidiary of BMC, a defence manufacturer whose major shareholders include the Qatari ministry of defence, and a businessman known for his links the Turkish president.

The fact this issue was discussed between the two ministers tells you how seriously this is being taken. Both sides remain committed to finding a resolution

Ministry of Defence
“The UK government does not want to fully lift export controls. They say: ‘what if in 10 years’ time there is a huge row with another country and we want to stop selling this to them?’,” said a Turkish official.

Rolls-Royce executives and British ministers have told Turkey that they cannot accept an arrangement that would see TR Motor own and manage the intellectual property of the programme.

“There are strict parameters around the TF-X programme,” said a person familiar with the situation. “Rolls-Royce doesn’t want a potential competitor to take the IP away and use it outside this programme for their own benefit.”

Calls between Turkish and UK ministers were planned this week to discuss the issue. Gavin Williamson, Britain’s defence minister, also discussed it with his Turkish counterpart, Nurettin Canikli, on the fringes of a Nato meeting last week.

IP issue threatens Rolls-Royce deal
Should the two sides fail to reach an agreement, Rolls-Royce could be forced to pull out of the programme. This could call into question the role of BAE Systems, which last year signed a £100m contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries to help design the jet. About 200 BAE engineers are working with TAI in the UK and Turkey.

The UK Ministry of Defence said: “The fact this issue was discussed between the two ministers tells you how seriously this is being taken. Both sides remain committed to finding a resolution.”

Other people close to the subject insisted that progress was being made, and that both sides were determined to overcome the obstacles.

“This is all part of the normal process of development programmes at this stage. We have had productive commercial discussion and are maintaining an active dialogue,” Rolls-Royce said. A team from the company will travel to Ankara for further talks after the presidential and parliamentary elections on June 24.

During President Erdogan’s trip to London last month, the two sides appeared to have resolved the IP issue. An initial agreement was signed and a deadline was set for July 31 to finalise terms, including the sharing of technology and export conditions. However, Turkish officials later renewed their demand that TR Motor supervise the propulsion programme.

Turkey wants to retain full ownership
BMC produces vans, buses and military vehicles. It recently won the tender to produce the first fully Turkish-made battle tank.

The company is 49.9 per cent owned by the Qatari armed forces, Yasin Ozturk, a member of the board of directors, told Turkish defence magazine MSI in December. He said that a further 25 per cent was owned by Ethem Sancak, a Turkish business tycoon who once said in a newspaper he owned that after getting to know Mr Erdogan, he learnt that “divine love is possible between two men.”

Osman Dur, general manager of BMC Power, the BMC subsidiary that is working on the TF-X programme, insisted that the project “will benefit the country”.

“All the IP and similar intellectual property rights gained within the scope of this project will remain in Turkey and belong to the SMM [the Turkish government’s under-secretariat for defence industries], which is providing the funding for the project,” he said.

A Turkish official with knowledge of the negotiations said that BMC had offered financial support for the TF-X programme, which Turkey estimates will cost $30bn in total. He said that Qatar’s involvement could also lead to future sales of the jet to the small Gulf state.

The official added: “For us, the whole point is that we want to own it. We are trying to become an independent defence producer. We don’t want restrictions imposed by outsiders.”

That was five months ago. So it looks like Turkey is still having problems getting its preferred RR engines + tech.

[marsavian]

The official added: “For us, the whole point is that we want to own it. We are trying to become an independent defence producer. We don’t want restrictions imposed by outsiders.”

Develop it yourself then. Seriously what's with India, Turkey, South Korea etc wanting help on a single project and then wanting the propietary IP that went into that help. Why should an external supplier help create a future competitor over just one deal. This infantile thinking is pure comedy.