Su-30MKI Instantaneous Turn Rate

[uclass]

Some people claim this to be 35deg/s with TVC and that the 24deg/s figure is without. Is there any truth to the 35deg/s figure? I was under the impression that STR and ITR involve an actual change in tangential velocity and not just nose direction. Is this correct?

[basher54321]

Do these people specifically state they mean a horizontal turn and do they give any other parameters like speed etc?
MiG-29 OVT and F-16 Vista have demonstrated more than that in vertical rate with TV.

TV uses thrust to move the nose faster in pitch by increasing the AOA - so you need to be going slow enough to pull the max AOA the limiter allows and still be under the G limiter to hit the max rates.

As energy starts to bleed off, the radius of the turn circle should get smaller, so tangential velocity would be variable in this case.

With STR you should be holding the same altitude, speed and G so the radius of the circle should remain constant.

[icemaverick]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a source for these claims? I have no idea what those figures are for the Su-30MKI. But in the video below, the speaker says the F-22 can do 28 deg/sec sustained at 20,000 ft. That's quite a bit better than the F-15. He later goes on to say that the F-15Cs with under wing tanks dominated clean Sukhois in WVR combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2siH9W5P4E

Of course, this is just a claim, but if its' true that would make it highly unlikely that the MKI is capable of those numbers. But as pointed out earlier, a lot depends on speed, altitude, load out, definitions etc. I don't think we can realistically get an accurate apples-to-apples comparison of the performance stats. Even if we do have "official" numbers, it's not uncommon for car manufacturers to over- or understate a car's horsepower. We can't know whether the manufacturers are being conservative or optimistic with the numbers.

I don't doubt that the MKI is a very agile aircraft. The Flanker series has earned its reputation. The F-35A also looks to have superior overall kinematics to the F-16 and F-18. I doubt that either airframe's maneuverability would be the most important factor in any hypothetical engagement. Pilot skill, tactics and situational awareness would probably weigh more heavily on the outcome.

[disconnectedradical]

The F-15 always had the advantage in the vertical since the Flankers (barring perhaps the new Su-35) never had great acceleration, T/W, or SEP. I believe the MiG-29 is the king of acceleration and SEP when it comes to 4th gens, but it's range and fuel load are laughable, as is it's avionics (barring the latest MiG-35).

I'm not sure about 28 degrees per second sustained at 20,000 ft for the F-22, since that frankly sounds like Star Wars. F-22 is immensely maneuverable but 28 dps at that altitude doesn't seem physically possible for any jets in the near future.

[basher54321]

Just out of curiosity, do you have a source for these claims? I have no idea what those figures are for the Su-30MKI. But in the video below, the speaker says the F-22 can do 28 deg/sec sustained at 20,000 ft. That's quite a bit better than the F-15. He later goes on to say that the F-15Cs with under wing tanks dominated clean Sukhois in WVR combat.
..................
Of course, this is just a claim, but if its' true that would make it highly unlikely that the MKI is capable of those numbers. But as pointed out earlier, a lot depends on speed, altitude, load out, definitions etc. I don't think we can realistically get an accurate apples-to-apples comparison of the performance stats.

When people quote those figures you have to assume its the maximum turn rate which is normally given at sea level in a clean config at a light fuel loading - and it will only sustain said max figure for probably a microsecond.

If you listen closely the guy explains in the video that the reason the F-15s with tanks beat the Su-30s in the exercise is simply that the Su-30 pilots don't know how to dogfight and don't know when to use TV. TV will put you in very bad situations if you don't understand when not to use it. He pretty much says that they will go away and learn from their mistakes - it gives us no indication of the Su-30s real ability.

The given 20,000ft sustained figure for the F-22 doesn't seem likely...........would like to see some evidence though .

I posted these months ago - go to about 1:50 - some basic math should tell you the nose rate (assuming the vid is not speeded up!). Note the original MiG-29 was limited to around 24 degrees AOA so they have taken off the limits for this show.
Also note it can only do this at the ultra slow speed its going - as you get faster AOA and G limiters will kick in to curtail this.

[icemaverick]

He did say that the Su-30MKI was a little better than the legacy F-15 and F-16 and should do better when the Indian pilots actually learn how to use it (most of the guys they sent to Red Flag didn't have many hours in the jet). But he also went on to say that the F-22 vastly superior to the F-15, F-16 and Su-30MKI in both WVR and BVR.

Whether or not his stated claims are true is up for debate. But he does seem like an experienced pilot and he is probably privy to a lot of info that we aren't.