What The Heck Happened?
- Senior member
- Posts: 362
- Joined: 24 Nov 2006, 21:18
Raptor, that may just be where the problem lies. I'm not a Raptor CC so I don't know much about that. A step easier than the 16, where the computers order parts and other gee whiz stuff I no nothing about.
My base is going from 16s backwards if you will...to the A-10C. Back to a mechanic's jet like the F-4. This has me excited as a mechanic where I can get dirty again rather than calling out so many specialists to do IT work. In my off time from the USAF I got my A&P license where I worked everything for an airline so it was hard going back to F-16s where I had my hands tied. With the A-10C I'm back to doing what I do best...fixing jets. Give me cables and bellcranks any day rather than computer operated FLCS.
I guess my debate about Pilot/CC relationships should have been more clear about going back in time to the cool jets...back to the days where there were better up front relationships and the backshops were a little more secondary. Vipers and Raptors I'll definately agree that the backshops should be right up there. Right now with the A-10s I'm working...we fix most anything that goes wrong. Specialists are only called out for things that go way deeper than what we've been trained for.
My base is going from 16s backwards if you will...to the A-10C. Back to a mechanic's jet like the F-4. This has me excited as a mechanic where I can get dirty again rather than calling out so many specialists to do IT work. In my off time from the USAF I got my A&P license where I worked everything for an airline so it was hard going back to F-16s where I had my hands tied. With the A-10C I'm back to doing what I do best...fixing jets. Give me cables and bellcranks any day rather than computer operated FLCS.
I guess my debate about Pilot/CC relationships should have been more clear about going back in time to the cool jets...back to the days where there were better up front relationships and the backshops were a little more secondary. Vipers and Raptors I'll definately agree that the backshops should be right up there. Right now with the A-10s I'm working...we fix most anything that goes wrong. Specialists are only called out for things that go way deeper than what we've been trained for.
Cave Putorium!
SoWW #2485
SoWW #2485
- F-16.net Moderator
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06
No problemo! Go to "Edit", and then scroll down below the message block, and click "Add Attachment". Then, you can attach the file, and add some text to the message block if you'd like. After that, click "Submit", and it should work.
If it's still Code 3 after that, shoot me a PM, and we'll try and figure out why it didn't work.
If it's still Code 3 after that, shoot me a PM, and we'll try and figure out why it didn't work.
-
- Elite 2K
- Posts: 2806
- Joined: 16 Dec 2003, 17:26
Salute!
I see no attachment doofer!
Forgive Snake-breath, as he might actually be older than Gums-breath!
My suggestion is to take 30 seconds to cut and paste to the clipboard thingie, then cut-and-paste to the forum post.
I also have two websites and know how to use the link stuff. But Snake never flew really smart jets, so he was a real "ball-and-needle" guy on instruments and TLBR for bombing. LOL.
Gums sends...
P.S. The real issue is creating and maintaining a cohesive unit that has the mission up front and foremost. Most of us here on this thread can tell all the dweebs how important the relationship is between the ones that go out and get shot at, then bring home wounded birds, with the troops that make it possible to get home, or even just to get off the ground!!!
There is no worse feeling for a pilot than to get one home that needs major work. Well, I guess losing a buddy 30 minutes before was pretty bad.
Best units I ever flew with had a super relationship with everyone from the CBPO weenies to the raw nugget crewchief. The ones that really got the job done were the senior NCO's and a good maintenance officer.
The bottomline is dedication to mission and mutual respect. The pissant personality problems are just that - pissants.
The pilots could do a lot more than most I saw to reward and complement the folks that made it all possible.
I see no attachment doofer!
Forgive Snake-breath, as he might actually be older than Gums-breath!
My suggestion is to take 30 seconds to cut and paste to the clipboard thingie, then cut-and-paste to the forum post.
I also have two websites and know how to use the link stuff. But Snake never flew really smart jets, so he was a real "ball-and-needle" guy on instruments and TLBR for bombing. LOL.
Gums sends...
P.S. The real issue is creating and maintaining a cohesive unit that has the mission up front and foremost. Most of us here on this thread can tell all the dweebs how important the relationship is between the ones that go out and get shot at, then bring home wounded birds, with the troops that make it possible to get home, or even just to get off the ground!!!
There is no worse feeling for a pilot than to get one home that needs major work. Well, I guess losing a buddy 30 minutes before was pretty bad.
Best units I ever flew with had a super relationship with everyone from the CBPO weenies to the raw nugget crewchief. The ones that really got the job done were the senior NCO's and a good maintenance officer.
The bottomline is dedication to mission and mutual respect. The pissant personality problems are just that - pissants.
The pilots could do a lot more than most I saw to reward and complement the folks that made it all possible.
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
- Senior member
- Posts: 362
- Joined: 24 Nov 2006, 21:18
Going back to relationships, we're all in this together!
Without: (insert your shop), we're just a very expensive flying club!
Oh, and in the past three months I did 5 TDYs to Hill AFB...DEAD! Only thing I could hear at night were the steam pipes venting off steam.
Got to buy beer on base if you don't want 3.2 beer...but there's nothing going on at all. For a base that huge with so many thousands of people (mostly civilians) it's dead quiet.
Crazy to start actually feeling old. When I went to Sheppard AFB for tech school in '86 I remember the awesome tales of beer "pop" machines in the dorms just a couple years before.
But now I can recall the Airman's club at Sheppard where we could drink when we were 19, and the skycops didn't bug you unless you were out of hand...as long as you were walking back to the dorms.
We had squadron parties at George AFB in the park where they'd bring in a camo Budweiser truck with taps on the side...free beer!
Every friday night after swings in Phase we'd have a cookout next to the hangar with lots of beer...lol.
Guess I have to hang on to memories just to keep my sanity from today's uberPC USAF...or wait my turn to get into a ranking position to try to change something.
Without: (insert your shop), we're just a very expensive flying club!
Oh, and in the past three months I did 5 TDYs to Hill AFB...DEAD! Only thing I could hear at night were the steam pipes venting off steam.
Got to buy beer on base if you don't want 3.2 beer...but there's nothing going on at all. For a base that huge with so many thousands of people (mostly civilians) it's dead quiet.
Crazy to start actually feeling old. When I went to Sheppard AFB for tech school in '86 I remember the awesome tales of beer "pop" machines in the dorms just a couple years before.
But now I can recall the Airman's club at Sheppard where we could drink when we were 19, and the skycops didn't bug you unless you were out of hand...as long as you were walking back to the dorms.
We had squadron parties at George AFB in the park where they'd bring in a camo Budweiser truck with taps on the side...free beer!
Every friday night after swings in Phase we'd have a cookout next to the hangar with lots of beer...lol.
Guess I have to hang on to memories just to keep my sanity from today's uberPC USAF...or wait my turn to get into a ranking position to try to change something.
Cave Putorium!
SoWW #2485
SoWW #2485
- Senior member
- Posts: 286
- Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:05
I didn't want to send this before the Christmas holidays and had trouble trying to get this attached to a message on this net but it adds to what we have already said. It's long but does go to show that the feeling is more than just among us here on the net. So here goes:
WHERE HAVE ALL THE FIGHTER PILOTS GONE.
I thank God I flew fighters in the 50s, 60, 70s and 80s, and spent many hours in the "Stag Bar" ( I'm really old) Men like Robin Olds were my leaders and heros ... hard drinking combat veterans, warrior leaders who we'd follow anywhere. The Air Force has been pussyfied.
(blank) is a Flight Surgeon for the F-16 Aggressor Sq at Eielson AFB, AK. He's been there just over 2 years and he says that the Officers Club is only open for "special events". The aggressors have the occasional party in the Sq building but normally invite wives and kids -- very tame. Sad.
Where have all the fighter pilots gone?
Got this in the morning mail. Note that I am passing it along rather quickly. I happen to be one of those who agree with the sentiments expressed herein.
Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below. What happened to our Air Force? We used to go to the Officers Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke, and swap lies with our comrades.
Drinking became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you". Stag bars became sexist. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a Performance Report. Same thing in the Airmen's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs. Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks. Instead we have something called "xxx" Air Force Club. It's open to men and women of all ranks .. from Airman Basic to General Officer. Still no one is there . Gee, I wonder why???
The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that "pilots" flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their duty station in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. The Politically Correct Logic? The remote vehicle operator is subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot flying actually flying in Combat. REALLY?????
Now that I've primed you a little, read on.
There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately the ones with the guts to speak up for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system". Unfortunately there is a lot of truth here. Supposedly, Secretary Gates has a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this. It is rumored that our current secretary of defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past? I can assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc. I've got the answer.
They were fired before they made Major.
Our nation doesn't want those kind of leaders anymore. Squadron Commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are "MANAGED" by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.
Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devel boozer-his only attributes. He had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together. If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than SH--!!!.
I find it ironic that the Air Force put Gen. Olds on the cover of the company rag last month. While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flying suit and shave his mustache off. I have a feeling that his response would be predicatable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an article 15.
We have lot the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow - not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk. We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual for whom you would drag your testicles through broken glass rather than disappoint.
We better wake the Hell up! We're asking our young men and wowen to go to shitty places, some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite *****, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into you PT uniform on the way to the porta-craper at night in a dust storm because it's a uniform.
These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer. Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C4 to their bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.
I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress and our so-called military leaders. Much talent has and will continue to herrorrhage from our services. Because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - one against our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.
Snake
WHERE HAVE ALL THE FIGHTER PILOTS GONE.
I thank God I flew fighters in the 50s, 60, 70s and 80s, and spent many hours in the "Stag Bar" ( I'm really old) Men like Robin Olds were my leaders and heros ... hard drinking combat veterans, warrior leaders who we'd follow anywhere. The Air Force has been pussyfied.
(blank) is a Flight Surgeon for the F-16 Aggressor Sq at Eielson AFB, AK. He's been there just over 2 years and he says that the Officers Club is only open for "special events". The aggressors have the occasional party in the Sq building but normally invite wives and kids -- very tame. Sad.
Where have all the fighter pilots gone?
Got this in the morning mail. Note that I am passing it along rather quickly. I happen to be one of those who agree with the sentiments expressed herein.
Think about this when you read the rest of the letter below. What happened to our Air Force? We used to go to the Officers Club Stag Bar on Friday afternoons to drink, smoke, and swap lies with our comrades.
Drinking became frowned on. Smoking caused cancer and could "harm you". Stag bars became sexist. Gradually, our men quit patronizing their clubs because what happened in the club became fodder for a Performance Report. Same thing in the Airmen's Club and the NCO and/or Top 3 clubs. Now we don't have separate clubs for the ranks. Instead we have something called "xxx" Air Force Club. It's open to men and women of all ranks .. from Airman Basic to General Officer. Still no one is there . Gee, I wonder why???
The latest brilliant thought out of Washington is that "pilots" flying remote aircraft in combat areas from their duty station in Nevada or Arizona should draw the same combat pay as those real world pilots actually on board a plane in a hostile environment. The Politically Correct Logic? The remote vehicle operator is subject to the same stress levels as the combat pilot flying actually flying in Combat. REALLY?????
Now that I've primed you a little, read on.
There are many who will agree with these sentiments, but they apply to more than just fighter pilots. Unfortunately the ones with the guts to speak up for what they believe in are beaten down by the "system". Unfortunately there is a lot of truth here. Supposedly, Secretary Gates has a force beating the bushes to learn who wrote this. It is rumored that our current secretary of defense recently asked the question, "Where are all the dynamic leaders of the past? I can assume, if that is true, that he was referring to Robin Olds, Jimmy Doolittle, Patton, Ike, Boyington, Nimitz, etc. I've got the answer.
They were fired before they made Major.
Our nation doesn't want those kind of leaders anymore. Squadron Commanders don't run squadrons and wing commanders don't run wings. They are "MANAGED" by higher ranking dildos with other esoteric goals in mind.
Can you imagine someone today looking for a LEADER to execute that Doolittle Raid and suggesting that it be given to a dare-devel boozer-his only attributes. He had the respect of his men, an awesome ability to fly, and the organizational skills to put it all together. If someone told me there was a chance in hell of selecting that man today, I would tell them they were either a liar or dumber than SH--!!!.
I find it ironic that the Air Force put Gen. Olds on the cover of the company rag last month. While it made me extremely proud to see his face, he wouldn't make it across any base in America (or overseas) without ten enlisted folks telling him to zip up his flying suit and shave his mustache off. I have a feeling that his response would be predicatable and for that crime he would probably get a trip home and an article 15.
We have lot the war on rugged individualism and that, unfortunately, is what fighter pilots want to follow - not because they have to but because they respect leaders of that ilk. We've all run across that leader that made us proud to follow him because you wanted to be like him and make a difference. The individual for whom you would drag your testicles through broken glass rather than disappoint.
We better wake the Hell up! We're asking our young men and wowen to go to shitty places, some with unbearable climates, never have a drink, have little or no contact with the opposite *****, not look at magazines of a suggestive nature of any type, and adhere to ridiculous regs that require you to tuck your shirt into you PT uniform on the way to the porta-craper at night in a dust storm because it's a uniform.
These people we're sending to combat are some of the brightest I've met but they are looking for a little sanity, which they will only find on the outside if we don't get a friggin clue. You can't continue asking people to live for months or years at a time acting like nuns and priests. Hell, even they get to have a beer. Who are we afraid of offending? The guys that already hate us enough to strap C4 to their bodies and walk into a crowd of us? Think about it.
I'm extremely proud of our young men and women who continue to serve. I'm also very in tune with what they are considering for the future and I've got news for whoever sits in the White House, Congress and our so-called military leaders. Much talent has and will continue to herrorrhage from our services. Because wanna-be warriors are tired of fighting on two fronts - one against our enemies, another against our lack of common sense.
Snake
- Senior member
- Posts: 362
- Joined: 24 Nov 2006, 21:18
Awesome post!
To add to that, I wonder how many enlisted folks who spent time at Balad or someplace similar could write a book about the dumb PC'ness of war. How many enlisted folks feared supervision (SMSgt/CMSgts) more than al Queda most of the time! In a war zone with no drinking, no "companionship" allowed...how many folks received or know of folks who received LOC/LOR/ART-15s for stupid stuff? Yeah, PT shirt tucked in to hit the head in the middle of the night, ankle socks the correct measurement over your sneakers with PT gear in the chow hall, don't forget to salute the CO's SUV, never have a dirty uniform for the DFAC or you'll be turned away, always wear your disco/sniper belt at night even though folks are getting shot by snipers at the ice truck at night. Heck, I was outside in my smokey hootch next to a HAS and watched a 3 shot mortar attack...I saw where they landed (far away)...and I was yelled at on the radio because I answered too quickly for my PAR sweep after the attack.
Seems like even with wars going on, there are too many people with nothing to do so they try to stay busy and make a hero name for themselves by following the books word for word. "Common sense" is a four letter word anymore.
To add to that, I wonder how many enlisted folks who spent time at Balad or someplace similar could write a book about the dumb PC'ness of war. How many enlisted folks feared supervision (SMSgt/CMSgts) more than al Queda most of the time! In a war zone with no drinking, no "companionship" allowed...how many folks received or know of folks who received LOC/LOR/ART-15s for stupid stuff? Yeah, PT shirt tucked in to hit the head in the middle of the night, ankle socks the correct measurement over your sneakers with PT gear in the chow hall, don't forget to salute the CO's SUV, never have a dirty uniform for the DFAC or you'll be turned away, always wear your disco/sniper belt at night even though folks are getting shot by snipers at the ice truck at night. Heck, I was outside in my smokey hootch next to a HAS and watched a 3 shot mortar attack...I saw where they landed (far away)...and I was yelled at on the radio because I answered too quickly for my PAR sweep after the attack.
Seems like even with wars going on, there are too many people with nothing to do so they try to stay busy and make a hero name for themselves by following the books word for word. "Common sense" is a four letter word anymore.
Cave Putorium!
SoWW #2485
SoWW #2485
- Senior member
- Posts: 286
- Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 23:05
Madrat
I'm afraid that you missed the point.
These last few articles were pointed at the leadership, or should I say management of the force. The line troops (pilots and wrench benders) are what is keeping the force alive to which I for one have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for. And I am glad that they are there doing their job regardless of all the feel good PC measures in place today.
Snake
I'm afraid that you missed the point.
These last few articles were pointed at the leadership, or should I say management of the force. The line troops (pilots and wrench benders) are what is keeping the force alive to which I for one have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for. And I am glad that they are there doing their job regardless of all the feel good PC measures in place today.
Snake
- Forum Veteran
- Posts: 753
- Joined: 13 Nov 2004, 19:43
- Location: 76101
Snake-1 wrote:These last few articles were pointed at the leadership, or should I say management of the force.
Snake
And there is exactly the problem, Snake. Too many managers think they are leading and don't know the difference. It is the same problem everywhere but in the military it is putting folks in danger.
Excellent post.
fisk
(who thinks EVERYONE running for POTUS should produce his DD-214 first)
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests