Admitted: F-22 won most of the WVR fights against Rafale

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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nutshell

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Unread post22 May 2016, 05:24

gta4 wrote:
basher54321 wrote:
gta4 wrote:The big surprise is that, during the indian MMRCA competition, only Typhoon was confirmed to have supercuise capability after flight test. Rafale wasn't.


Did they define Supercruise as being >=M1.5?


You think Typhoon could to that? Even the Eurofighter company won't make that bold claim.


By the definition of supercruising, you "just" need breaking the sound barrier without engaging the afterburners.
EJ200 is a quite powerful engine and the frame shoudn't suffer of too much drag.
Might not be 1.5M supercruising, but for sure can break the barrier without it.
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jessmo111

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Unread post22 May 2016, 06:22

"The F-22 Raptor's supercruise capabilities are touted as a major performance advantage over other fighters, with supercruise being demonstrated up to at least Mach 1.7.[10] Virtually all current and past jet fighters, prior to the F-22, cruise at approximately Mach 0.8–0.9 with a militarily significant weapons load.[11] However, supercruising uses more fuel to travel the same distance than at subsonic speeds, with the Air Force Association estimating that use of supercruise for a 100-nautical-mile (190 km) dash as part of a mission would cut the F-22's combat radius from about 600 nautical miles (1,110 km) to about 450 nautical miles (830 km). This reduction is unconfirmed because the altitude and flight profile are classified, as are most of the F-22's capabilities, but it is still far less of a reduction than would result from the use of afterburner.

There are a few engines in production that are designed to facilitate tactically significant supercruise:
Pratt & Whitney F119 engines are used in the F-22 Raptor.
The General Electric F414G in JAS 39 Gripen NG is designed for supercruise and has been shown to achieve Mach 1.2.[13]
The EJ200 engine built by EuroJet Turbo GmbH gives the Eurofighter Typhoon supercruise capability. It is capable of supercruising at Mach 1.5 in clean configuration.[9] Typhoon pilots have stated that Mach 1.3 is attainable in combat configuration with external stores.[12]
Although the Pratt & Whitney F135 F-35 engine was not designed to achieve a supercruise capability,[14] the F-35 is able to maintain Mach 1.2 for a dash of 150 miles without using afterburners.[15

Confirmed, here that the Typhoon is a mach 1.5 super cruiser.
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nutshell

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Unread post22 May 2016, 13:02

jessmo111 wrote:

[b]The EJ200 engine built by EuroJet Turbo GmbH gives the Eurofighter Typhoon supercruise capability. It is capable of supercruising at Mach 1.5 in clean configuration
Confirmed, here that the Typhoon is a mach 1.5 super cruiser.


"Supercruise is sustained supersonic flight of a supersonic aircraft with a useful cargo, passenger, or weapons load performed efficiently".

If this definition of supercruising hold true, the EF is a1.3M supercruiser.
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madrat

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Unread post22 May 2016, 19:09

So possible to Mach 1.5 with belly AAMs only. Pylons are such a drag...
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mixelflick

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Unread post22 May 2016, 22:31

madrat wrote:So possible to Mach 1.5 with belly AAMs only. Pylons are such a drag...


That's not what it said. It said, "clean configuration". - "It is capable of supercruising at Mach 1.5 in clean configuration". I'm sure belly AAM's cause minimal drag. But some drag is still drag, and likely accounts for the Mach 1.5/1.3 pilot reports..
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hornetfinn

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Unread post23 May 2016, 13:18

The Swiss report from 2009 said that a/c performances were among the strong points of Eurofighter Typhoon with the mention of supercruise at Mach 1.4. Eurofighter Typhoon also got 9 in a/c performances. No mention about supercruise was made for Rafale or Gripen E. Rafale got 7 in a/c performance and Gripen E about 5.3 or so. F/A-18C/D with F404-GE-402 engines is ranked at 6. So Rafale was considered a bit better than F/A-18C/D and Gripen E a bit worse. Of course a/c performances include a lot of other things than supercruise speed but I seriously doubt Rafale is capable of achieving Mach 1.4 supercruise. It has less power and lower T/W ratio to EF Typhoon while having very similar aerodynamics although EF Typhoon seems like a bit more geared towards high speed operations.

It might well be the definition of supercruise. Maybe Rafale is just able to reach Mach 1.4 before all fuel is spent and EF Typhoon is able to do so with full internal fuel after dropping EFTs. Both could claim fairly similar supercruise capability but only one would be really useful in real world conditions. It may also be

Against F-22 in WVR, Rafale is at disadvantage in most traditional measures of agility. It has lower T/W ratio and lower nose pointing ability (lower AoA limits) and AFAIK roll rate for example. However it's a still a rather agile and powerful aircraft with equal or somewhat superior performances than F-16 Block 50 for example. It also has one of the best avionics in 4th gen fighters and it's probably very easy to fly which is IMO underrated quality in fighter aircraft. I think it can give a very good fight for any aircraft (including F-22) in basic WVR fight which starts from neutral position. I'd not be surprised if it got some F-22 "kills" in exercises. Of course F-22 is overall far superior aircraft in air-to-air combat but Rafale is possibly the best 4th gen multi-role aircraft with very respectable air-to-air capabilities.
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em745

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Unread post23 May 2016, 18:33

hornetfinn wrote:I seriously doubt Rafale is capable of achieving Mach 1.4 supercruise.

Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment...

From what numbers I could find online, the M88's have a bypass ratio of 0.3 vs the EJ200's 0.4. And as some of you already know, supercruising engines tend to (or rather need to) have very low BPR's (F119's is ~0.2).

In addition, the M88's TIT (turbine inlet temp.) is about 170°F hotter than the EJ's (2,870 vs 2,700). Hotter engine core -> higher exhaust pressure -> higher exhaust velocity -> higher NET thrust -> better "supercruise."

Take these numbers, add in the possibility of the Rafale having slightly less drag (hey, anything's possible), and is it completely out of the realm of possibility that it just might be a better supercruiser than the EF?

(Yoohoo! TEG! Chime in, here!...)

hornetfinn wrote:It has less power and lower T/W ratio to EF Typhoon

IMO, T/W is irrelevant as far as supercruise goes. The Concorde supercruised regularly at M2.0, and its T/W (dry) was roughly 0.35:1 .

A high NET thrust and low drag are the main keys to supercruising.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post24 May 2016, 09:41

em745 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I seriously doubt Rafale is capable of achieving Mach 1.4 supercruise.

Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment...


I like that! :devil:

You make some good points, thank you!

em745 wrote:From what numbers I could find online, the M88's have a bypass ratio of 0.3 vs the EJ200's 0.4. And as some of you already know, supercruising engines tend to (or rather need to) have very low BPR's (F119's is ~0.2).

In addition, the M88's TIT (turbine inlet temp.) is about 170°F hotter than the EJ's (2,870 vs 2,700). Hotter engine core -> higher exhaust pressure -> higher exhaust velocity -> higher NET thrust -> better "supercruise."


All true, although info I found indicates that M88s TIT is only about 90 degrees Fahrenheit or 50 Kelvin hotter than EJs. On the other hand EJ200 has higher overall pressure ratio (26:1 vs. 24.5:1) which leads to higher efficiency and higher thrust. Concorde you used had overall pressure ratio of over 80:1 when cruising because of variable geometry intakes had insane pressure recovery properties. I don't know the effect Typhoon or Rafale intakes have, but I'd bet the variable intake of EF is better than Rafale for high speed high altitude flight. It may well be that advantages each have cancel each other pretty much as the values are not that much different in each engine.

em745 wrote:Take these numbers, add in the possibility of the Rafale having slightly less drag (hey, anything's possible), and is it completely out of the realm of possibility that it just might be a better supercruiser than the EF?


I think the Swiss evaluation report pretty much confirms that EF has higher supercruise speed and higher performance in general. That Swiss report also indicates that avionics is nowadays more important than raw performance which is why Rafale was considered best. This is also probably why F-22 least impressive features are said to be speed and acceleration by pilots.

That Swiss report also says that F/A-18C was considered the best in WVR fight due to JHMCS and AIM-9X qualities. Of course neither F-22 nor Rafale has HMS. Currently Rafale has MICA missile which is probably better for WVR fight than missiles F-22 currently use and will give it some advantages. MICA-IR seems to have very good IIR seeker and is one of the most agile air-to-air missiles around. If Rafale had HMS, I could see it giving current F-22 a very tough time in WVR. When F-22 gets AIM-9X and HMS, it will be very tough to beat in WVR though.

em745 wrote:(Yoohoo! TEG! Chime in, here!...)


Yeah, I'd also like someone who really knows engines to chime in.

em745 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:It has less power and lower T/W ratio to EF Typhoon

IMO, T/W is irrelevant as far as supercruise goes. The Concorde supercruised regularly at M2.0, and its T/W (dry) was roughly 0.35:1 .

A high NET thrust and low drag are the main keys to supercruising.


True. High thrust to drag ratio is definitely the key. I have no idea what the drag qualities of EF and Rafale are and considered them to be fairly equal. As Tiffy has more dry thrust overall and also higher T/W ratio, I think it has better potential for supercruise.
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madrat

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Unread post24 May 2016, 20:57

I remember years ago reading Typhoon had better drag characteristics with belly aim-120 loaded than without.
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gta4

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Unread post25 May 2016, 01:03

True, the T/W ratio has little to do with speed.

According to F-16 block 50 manual, F-16 could achieve M1.05 (clean) with military power, 24000 lb flight weight. Guess how fast it is able to achieve with 28000 lbs flight weight, clean, MIL power? Still M1.05.
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mixelflick

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Unread post25 May 2016, 14:42

madrat wrote:I remember years ago reading Typhoon had better drag characteristics with belly aim-120 loaded than without.


That's an incredible claim. Source?

If it's just "what some guy said", obviously... not credible.
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gta4

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Unread post02 May 2017, 03:00

Time to bump this again to stop those "Rafale used to defeat Raptor once" troll :mrgreen:
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gta4

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Unread post02 May 2017, 03:21

A brief summary about what happened previously on this thread:

Some people wanted to translate the french expression "se sortir de (s'en sortir)" literally as "to escape", but the French-French dictionary translates it as "to succeed (réussir), to come out on top".

So, F-22 did not escape from the Rafale, but had an edge over Rafale in most of the dogfights. This was confirmed by a native French speaker, em745.

Another French speaker, wil59, could not find the proper english term to explain "réussir", and deliberately ignores the explanation given by the French-French dictionary.
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