F-22 vs. F-14? Would there be any competition?

[danhutmacher]

What's the scenario and ROEs for this fight? While I'm no means a raptor fan I think that the F-14 would lose in 95% of the fights. I can think of a few ways the F-14 could win. It all depends on the scenario and the Pilots abilities.

[Guysmiley]

I can think of a few ways the F-14 could win.

How about if the F-22 is parked on the tarmac and the Tomcat drops a bomb? Then the F-14 might have a chance. Of course all you need to do is put Lt. Pete Mitchell in the Tomcat and the thing is invincible (complete with magically regenerating AAMs)

[dwcace]

Granted that I'm a huge F-14 fan, it would have it's work cut out for it. If it was a close in fight, the F-22 would most likely win. But with lots of things, it boils down to the pilots. If you took a new-build D (don't have to worry so much about G's) against an F-22 close in, with a capable crew (maybe add the AIM-9X, but I don't think that they F-14 was ever slated for this), the Raptor driver might sweat at bit. For long-medium range I feel that the F-14 could hold it's own. It could use the IRST/TCS to search for the F-22, and then narrow down the search pattern with the APG-75/AWG-9 combo, and hopefully get a launch solution for the AIM-54 or AIM-120 (which the D's were supposed to have).
Just my thoughts.

[MKopack]

Granted that I'm a huge F-14 fan... If you took a new-build D (don't have to worry so much about G's) against an F-22 close in, with a capable crew (maybe add the AIM-9X, but I don't think that they F-14 was ever slated for this), the Raptor driver might sweat at bit. .

Up close, the new build D's in the late 80's early 90's could never consistantly hold their own against the F-15's or F-16's of the day. The F-22 completely and utterly dominates both of these aircraft.

For long-medium range I feel that the F-14 could hold it's own. It could use the IRST/TCS to search for the F-22, and then narrow down the search pattern with the APG-75/AWG-9 combo, and hopefully get a launch solution for the AIM-54 or AIM-120 (which the D's were supposed to have). Just my thoughts.

While the 'Cat is using its IRST to search for the F-22, the Raptor already has a locked firing solution and is just playing. I've always been a big Tomcat fan, but it's just not gonna happen...

Mike

[WILZ]

Granted that I'm a huge F-14 fan, it would have it's work cut out for it. If it was a close in fight, the F-22 would most likely win. But with lots of things, it boils down to the pilots. If you took a new-build D (don't have to worry so much about G's) against an F-22 close in, with a capable crew (maybe add the AIM-9X, but I don't think that they F-14 was ever slated for this), the Raptor driver might sweat at bit. For long-medium range I feel that the F-14 could hold it's own. It could use the IRST/TCS to search for the F-22, and then narrow down the search pattern with the APG-75/AWG-9 combo, and hopefully get a launch solution for the AIM-54 or AIM-120 (which the D's were supposed to have).
Just my thoughts.

YGTBFSM? What plannet are you from?
You forgot to add: If the F-14 had glass 2, and a Hyperpowered plutonic laser it may have a chance.

[johnqhitman]

F-14 doesn't have a chance. As good as a plane the Raptor is just too damned good. The Raptor driver could pull up on the Tomcat's six and hammer away with the gun while the pilot and RIO are still looking long-range for the raptor.

[cbale2000]

YGTBFSM? What plannet are you from?
You forgot to add: If the F-14 had glass 2, and a Hyperpowered plutonic laser it may have a chance.

Nice...

[danhutmacher]

Here's a scenario where the F-14D would win. The F-22 is supercruising over enemy territory and the F-14 is vectored onto the F-22 by a GCI sight. The F-14 uses its IRST to locate the F-22 and maneuvers at low altitude around to the side of the F-22 and then starts a full power climb until it gets within heater range. It never uses its radar only a GCI sight and its IRST.
In that case the F-22 would never know what hit it.
I could think of several others but that would make for a really long post.
I wish you F-22 fans would stop to think about how you would beat the raptor instead of sitting back and saying nothing can beat it. IT CAN BE BEATEN!

[TC]

And if I had a thousand years, a good shovel, and access to every piece of property in Detroit, I could probably find Jimmy Hoffa.

Where do you get your information from Dan? Who do you work for, and what is your fighter-related background? Please tell us which GCI radar in the world you know FOR A FACT that can track the Raptor. Better yet, please tell us which radar you know for a fact can obtain a sustatined track the 22, AND provide a firing solution.

Could you provide some credible evidence to support your statements? Afterwards, should I call the engineers that I used to work with at Lockheed Martin, and tell them that they need to retire?

So, what's your story? It really sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that the 22 can be beaten.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.

[snypa777]

Dont some Russian SAMS use electro-optical guidance for missile shots? As a back up? This info is then relayed to fire control. It doesn`t mean they get a lock but they know where to fire the thing. With semi active radars in the missiles, it may have a chance....

This is of course ASSUMING they see the F-22 coming in the first place!!!! It would also have to be in broad daylight! Maybe the F-22 pilot could radio the SAM site ahead and say " In about two minutes I will be flying right into your kill zone...get your binoculars ready!!!"

[TC]

You hit the nail on the head. You can't shoot what you can't see, unless you got lucky with a ballistic shot. I won't get into RCS details, but if you think you can get a shot off on something flying supersonic, with virtually no return, then have fun.

However, what we didn't factor in was that Wild Weasels have already destroyed your SAM site, and EA-6s have jammed your communications. Cruise missiles, and strike packages have destroyed your runways, hangars, command and control, and infastructure. US, and Coalition aircraft then proceed into the area relatively safely.

By the time it took me to type, proofread, and revise all of that, the Raptor has already targeted me, dropped his JDAMs from out of the range of my SAMs and AAA, and killed me.

You still want to go up against a Raptor? I didn't think so.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

[MKopack]

Just spoke yesterday with Langley and Cannon F-15 and F-16 guys about fighting Raptors. The CC guys are just back from Nellis and the FF guys are getting 'local' training. They all say that it is sort of like hunting deer being a sport - one side doesn't know that it is even playing.

They spoke of being in a 4 ship of pretty damn good F-15C's actively searching for the F-22 that they know is there. Then the radio call comes through to come home, you're all dead, and you don't know how, or from where, it's pretty scary. They all said that there's 'No frickin way' until they were shown the telemetry and they knew that it was true. One of the guys said that it was like fighting something out of Star Wars.

Mike

[snypa777]

That is indeed scary! Not even a bleep from your RWR! then an AMRAAM straight through your fuselage! You would think the 15s would get some radar warning in a real fight from the AMRAAMS active radar, unless it was guided all the way by an AWACS through a datalink. OUCH!

[Scorpion1alpha]

Just spoke yesterday with Langley and Cannon F-15 and F-16 guys about fighting Raptors. The CC guys are just back from Nellis and the FF guys are getting 'local' training. They all say that it is sort of like hunting deer being a sport - one side doesn't know that it is even playing.

They spoke of being in a 4 ship of pretty damn good F-15C's actively searching for the F-22 that they know is there. Then the radio call comes through to come home, you're all dead, and you don't know how, or from where, it's pretty scary. They all said that there's 'No frickin way' until they were shown the telemetry and they knew that it was true. One of the guys said that it was like fighting something out of Star Wars.

Mike

And

That is indeed scary! Not even a bleep from your RWR! then an AMRAAM straight through your fuselage! You would think the 15s would get some radar warning in a real fight from the AMRAAMS active radar, unless it was guided all the way by an AWACS through a datalink. OUCH!

That is why Raptor pilots are having a harder time finding anyone wanting to fight them, especially as word gets around squadron to squadron about the Raptor's prowness.

Really, knowingly going up against the F/A-22, no matter what you're flying, is like comitting suicide. You will die before you knew you were even threatened in the first place. It's a hopeless feeling to know that no matter what tactic you and your buddies use, you can't see the Raptor(s) and you're still being looked at, identified, tracked, and targeted without even knowing it. And this is all at BVR.

Then there are those that think at WVR they will have a chance against the Raptor. "Oh boy, just let me dogfight the Raptor because there is no way the Raptor can outmaneuver those incredible 3.5-4th gen Russian planes with those after thought, slapped-on thrust-vectoring nozzels. Really, how can that terrible American 5th Generation fighter with currently the most powerful production fighter engines, built-in thrust vectoring conceived from the outset of it's design, huge wing with large, powerful control surfaces, and all controlled with the most advanced flight control system (among other things) beat the SU-WHATEVER or MIG-WHATEVER? What are they THINKING?"

Well, if for some devine reason you do manage to survive to the merge, you just may have a chance to see who and what is going to kill you.

[danhutmacher]

In answer to your questions TC I have a basic understanding of Stealth Technology. Having a low RCS doesn't mean you are invisible to radar just harder to see. So any modern radar should be able to detect the F-22. The difference, and what counts, is being able to do so at tactically useful range.
There are other ways to track the F-22 then by radar. Some of which should be obvious to anyone that doesn't believe all the hype around the F-22.
As for my fighter background. Poor eyesight has kept me from being a military pilot but I'm an avid student of aviation history. I'm also an Army veteran and as such I know that MR. MURPHY has a way of ***king up all kinds of plans.

I just wish that the fans of the F-22 would look at it and ask How can it be beaten? I bet you that the Chinese and Russians have teams of pilots and scientists asking that very question.

As I have said before NO fighter plane is invincible.