YF-22 vs YF-23

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 16:37

zero-one wrote:You got a link to support this?
Both designs officially met DOD requirements in Stealth (which included IR stealth) Speed and maneuverability.
Today the F-22 is renown for its Stealth, both RF and IR with claims that not even fighters with advanced Sniper and the latest IR missiles can kill it even from short range.
Read here: https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/


F-22 does have some IR suppressing nozzles but F-23's design allows even better IR suppression since the exhaust goes over a trench in the aft fuselage to dissipate heat like on the B-2, so it's got much bigger area to cool the exhaust.
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zero-one

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 16:57

disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 does have some IR suppressing nozzles but F-23's design allows even better IR suppression since the exhaust goes over a trench in the aft fuselage to dissipate heat like on the B-2, so it's got much bigger area to cool the exhaust.


Maybe, but thats not what he said, he said

wooster wrote:The F-22 offers practically nothing in the way of IR suppression.


would you agree to that?
The F-22 is possibly the most or at least one of the most IR stealthy Air-superiority fighters ever.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 17:59

zero-one wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:F-22 does have some IR suppressing nozzles but F-23's design allows even better IR suppression since the exhaust goes over a trench in the aft fuselage to dissipate heat like on the B-2, so it's got much bigger area to cool the exhaust.


Maybe, but thats not what he said, he said

wooster wrote:The F-22 offers practically nothing in the way of IR suppression.


would you agree to that?
The F-22 is possibly the most or at least one of the most IR stealthy Air-superiority fighters ever.


Of operational fighters. But point is the F-23 system is more effective for IR suppression.

F-23 would suit USAF much better for how they actually use ATF. The emphasis is all aspect stealth speed and range and F-23 has the advantage in these areas. And F-23 is still very maneuverable, the F-22 and F-23 maneuverability gap isn't that big, in post stall F-22 has advantage for sure but F-23's wing area is even bigger than F-22's, and it also has high lift devices like chines to generate vortex.
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wooster

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 18:26

"would you agree to that?
The F-22 is possibly the most or at least one of the most IR stealthy Air-superiority fighters ever."

An exhaust plume is still an exhaust plume. A hot nozzle is still a hot nozzle. The IR suppressing paint applied to the 22 would have been applied to the 23. With the troughs, military power supercruise, and shielding from the tails, bottom, and positioned (I'm guessing) 7-8ft aircraft forwards from the tail, the 23's exhaust nozzles were only visible from the one viewpoint: the top. You can see the 22's from darn near ever direction except the front, and more importantly for overflying contested ground, the nozzles are visible to ground based IR sensors. The 23 would have been the most IR suppressive aircraft or fighter except for perhaps the B-2. And considering today's seekers are good enough for frontal shots, hiding the nozzles is vitally important to all aspect stealth.

Considering how many 5th gen fighters in the world there are, being "possibly the most or at least one of the most IR stealthy Air-superiority fighters ever" isn't much of a feat.
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charlielima223

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 19:50

At this point any discussion regarding comparing YF-22/F-22 to the YF-23 is like...
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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 20:00

disconnectedradical wrote:


F-23 would suit USAF much better for how they actually use ATF. The emphasis is all aspect stealth speed and range and F-23 has the advantage in these areas.

The YF-23 was faster than the YF-22, but so is the F-22. Production F-22s have demonstrated supercruise speeds of M1.82 (or faster.) The fastest claimed supercruise speed of the YF-23 during testing was M1.6+. We'll never know how a production F-23 would've compared with a production F-22. It's possible that the range advantages of the production model would've been less dramatic, too.
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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 08:43

wrightwing wrote:The YF-23 was faster than the YF-22, but so is the F-22. Production F-22s have demonstrated supercruise speeds of M1.82 (or faster.) The fastest claimed supercruise speed of the YF-23 during testing was M1.6+. We'll never know how a production F-23 would've compared with a production F-22. It's possible that the range advantages of the production model would've been less dramatic, too.


Exactly... Metz was also quoted by saying they never flew beyond 1.85 mach

Stealth: Due to the exposed fan blades (see picture) the YF-23 would have had worse VLO characteristics from certain angles particularly from the front. This could have been redesigned in production models but that could also likely affect the YF-23’s performance advantages over the YF-22.


Range: Estimates vary from 750 nautical miles all the way to 900 nautical miles for the YF-23. The YF-22’s radius is not all that bad coming in at just below 700 nautical miles. weather or not the 23 would maintain this range gap once the fuselage was redesigned to accommodate more weapons remains to be seen.

Maneuverability: Even Northrop’s executives admitted that the YF-22 was the more agile of the 2. However this was not just simple low speed air show maneuverability. A critical requirement was supersonic maneuverability where the traditional control surfaces are not as efficient. Compound that with the fact that the 22 had twice the number of control surfaces as well for instances where TVC is not used.

Speed: Though commonly said to be faster, YF-23 test pilot, Paul Metz said that they never flew beyond Mach 1.85. And he said if they kept doing it they would run out of canopies due to excessive canopy cracking at those speeds. This advantage is also nullified with the redesign applied to the production F-22 that matched or maybe even exceeded the YF-23's speed advantage at the cost of even more range .

Weapons: Here is one overlooked aspect of the program. the YF-23 only carried 5 missiles, (3 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders) where as the YF-22 carried 8 missiles. the Production F-23 would have been lengthened to accommodate more, how this would affect range, speed and Stealth, I don't know. Using a magazine type weapons bay, once one missile jams under G load or something, then thats the end of that.

Reliability:
YF-22: 74 flights, 91 flight hours
YF-23: 50 flights, 65 flight hours

In conclusion.
All aspect Stealth: Tied, arguably YF-23
Speed: YF-23 (Matched by production F-22)
Range: YF-23
Maneuverability: YF-22
Weapons capacity: YF-22 (Matched by production F-23 albeit with reliability concerns)
Availability: YF-22

Out of these characteristics, Range is the most negligible. You cant add maneuverability mid flight, you can't add weapons mid flight, you can't repair mid flight, but you can add range mid flight as what the USAF has done in every single air campaign since the advent of aerial refueling.
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eloise

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 09:59

zero-one wrote:Stealth: Due to the exposed fan blades (see picture) the YF-23 would have had worse VLO characteristics from certain angles particularly from the front. This could have been redesigned in production models but that could also likely affect the YF-23’s performance advantages over the YF-22.

Production F-23 uses DSI inlet so it doesn't have expose fan blades from any direction, it also doesn't have the splitter plate gap like F-22 => fewer cavity reflection and edge scattering, production F-23 will have better frontal VLO characteristic than F-22
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Moreover, F-23 has a single pair of all-moving V-tail while F-22 has a pair of vertical tails and a pair of horizontal tails, the F-23 would have fewer corners so F-23 will also have better VLO characteristic from the side. Look at their arrangements, against ground threats, F-23 has better IR shielding too, engine nozzle completely shielded from the side or from a lower altitude.
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zero-one wrote:Speed: Though commonly said to be faster, YF-23 test pilot, Paul Metz said that they never flew beyond Mach 1.85. And he said if they kept doing it they would run out of canopies due to excessive canopy cracking at those speeds. This advantage is also nullified with the redesign applied to the production F-22 that matched or maybe even exceeded the YF-23's speed advantage at the cost of even more range .

F-23 is longer and thinner than F-22 that lead to better lift-drag ratio.
If they use the same engine, I think there is no doubt that F-23 has better top speed and acceleration
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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 11:28

eloise wrote:production F-23 uses DSI inlet so it doesn't have expose fan blades from any direction,


But wouldn't this redesign affect performance as well?

eloise wrote:F-23 is longer and thinner than F-22 that lead to better lift-drag ratio.
If they use the same engine, I think there is no doubt that F-23 has better top speed and acceleration

The production F-22 already matched the YF-23' in speed.
So are you suggesting that the longer and thus heavier F-23 will be faster than the YF-23 prototype?
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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 12:27

You don't just slim up a design and magically maintain range. The redesign of the F-23 must have lost considerable fuel by the redesign.
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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 14:05

madrat wrote:You don't just slim up a design and magically maintain range. The redesign of the F-23 must have lost considerable fuel by the redesign.


It's a bit longer (making it slimmer even if they didn't change the cross section, which they did). Also, the nacelles are more compact because the need for thrust reversers went away. Those fat nacelles on the YF-23 weren't full of fuel. They were that big because it was assumed they'd need the space for thrust reversers.
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sferrin

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 14:09

zero-one wrote:So are you suggesting that the longer and thus heavier F-23 will be faster than the YF-23 prototype?


Why would you assume it's heavier just because it's longer?
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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 14:17

Look at the SR-71 and it's T/W and speed. Look at the F-111 and its size and top speed.

F-23A would have certainly been less observable in IR spectrum than this. It was shielded on 3 sides and burried into the top of the airframe hiding a lot of the exhaust plumes as well.

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 15:26

sferrin wrote:
zero-one wrote:So are you suggesting that the longer and thus heavier F-23 will be faster than the YF-23 prototype?


Why would you assume it's heavier just because it's longer?


The chances of the F-23 getting heavier than the YF-23 are far more likely than it getting lighter or maintaining weight.
Every single fighter developed gained weight even without lengthening the fuselage.

wooster wrote:Look at the SR-71 and it's T/W and speed. Look at the F-111 and its size and top speed.


What I'm saying is lengthening the fuselage, redesigning the intakes and the likelihood of weight gain may affect the performance of the F-23 against the YF-23. What those effects will be, I don't know. For the YF-22 it was an increase in speed and a decrease in range.

wooster wrote:F-23A would have certainly been less observable in IR spectrum than this.


Who cares, the F-22's IR stealth is still one of its strong suits. How many times has this bird went up against all kinds of adversaries with advanced IRSTs come out on top. Even Typhoon and Rafale pilots say that at BVR the Raptor is invincible. No one would dare challenge it in BVR,

In the maneuverability department however, we have Typhoon pilots saying that at short range their birds flying clean can match and in other areas outclass the Raptor. I can only imagine how much worse the narrative would be if it was F-23s flying against those Typhoons.
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sferrin

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 15:30

zero-one wrote:
sferrin wrote:
zero-one wrote:So are you suggesting that the longer and thus heavier F-23 will be faster than the YF-23 prototype?


Why would you assume it's heavier just because it's longer?


The chances of the F-23 getting heavier than the YF-23 are far more likely than it getting lighter or maintaining weight.
Every single fighter developed gained weight even without lengthening the fuselage.


But that's not what you said. " the longer and thus heavier" You're implying it would get heavier if it got longer.
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