F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

[wil59]

i dont think i ever saw anything out the back of the 38 in IFF.....all i know is:
ready, ready, fights on!
break..1 potato 2 potato....jink!
1 potato 2 potato...jink!

never saw squat

debrief:
"Hey bud your jinks were a little late but not bad overall... we'll call it a sat"

just smile and wave boys, smile and wave


the funny thing about all this is that the US has learned to not show the french sh*t.....you can rest assured that the raptor was holding back. I know a guy who fought rafales at Luke and he said it was a good jet, but a light Viper did pretty well against it. A raptor can run circles around anything but a light 50/52 and even then he can cash in for first launch with his nose anytime he wants using thrust vectoring.

this is propoganda plain and simple...taken out of context

also his AGSM sucks donkey nuts

I disagree, the f22 driver operate the aircraft with full capacity if you are dead, the f-22 turned around the rafale lol; smoke stopped my boy! the fight're dogfight ok; the bvr fight do you think eurofighter is better than I burst does not believe more burst is much better for different mission with its versatility it does not need to be reconfigured for it or need another plane to light a target lol

[sferrin]

i dont think i ever saw anything out the back of the 38 in IFF.....all i know is:
ready, ready, fights on!
break..1 potato 2 potato....jink!
1 potato 2 potato...jink!

never saw squat

debrief:
"Hey bud your jinks were a little late but not bad overall... we'll call it a sat"

just smile and wave boys, smile and wave


the funny thing about all this is that the US has learned to not show the french sh*t.....you can rest assured that the raptor was holding back. I know a guy who fought rafales at Luke and he said it was a good jet, but a light Viper did pretty well against it. A raptor can run circles around anything but a light 50/52 and even then he can cash in for first launch with his nose anytime he wants using thrust vectoring.

this is propoganda plain and simple...taken out of context

also his AGSM sucks donkey nuts

I disagree, the f22 driver operate the aircraft with full capacity if you are dead, the f-22 turned around the rafale lol; smoke stopped my boy! the fight're dogfight ok; the bvr fight do you think eurofighter is better than I burst does not believe more burst is much better for different mission with its versatility it does not need to be reconfigured for it or need another plane to light a target lol

You sound like a barely literate COD warrior.

[eloise]

Look at what a T-38 can do

[basher54321]

Clearly had a harder time against F-16s

[eloise]

Clearly had a harder time against F-16s

can you imagine what will happened if these were F-35 rather than F-22 marking all newspaper will be flooded with how F-35 is 10 times worse than F-16

[wil59]

i dont think i ever saw anything out the back of the 38 in IFF.....all i know is:
ready, ready, fights on!
break..1 potato 2 potato....jink!
1 potato 2 potato...jink!

never saw squat

debrief:
"Hey bud your jinks were a little late but not bad overall... we'll call it a sat"

just smile and wave boys, smile and wave


the funny thing about all this is that the US has learned to not show the french sh*t.....you can rest assured that the raptor was holding back. I know a guy who fought rafales at Luke and he said it was a good jet, but a light Viper did pretty well against it. A raptor can run circles around anything but a light 50/52 and even then he can cash in for first launch with his nose anytime he wants using thrust vectoring.

this is propoganda plain and simple...taken out of context

also his AGSM sucks donkey nuts

I disagree, the f22 driver operate the aircraft with full capacity if you are dead, the f-22 turned around the rafale lol; smoke stopped my boy! the fight're dogfight ok; the bvr fight do you think eurofighter is better than I burst does not believe more burst is much better for different mission with its versatility it does not need to be reconfigured for it or need another plane to light a target lol

You sound like a barely literate COD warrior.

yes I play call of a "ghost" on xbox one, lol ;more seriously a thought for all the people murdered in paris by these son of a bitch!129 dead and wounded 300+ and this 230 kilometer from home!we really live in a world of sh*t! RIP

[zero-one]

Well for all you fan boys out there, heres a semi-educated list of the Top 10 best WVR fighters as of 2015.

To be fair, the writer does have his merits. any pilot will tell you, his plane is the best, but if you've talked to so many of them, you can probably make a subjective hypothesis that isn't too far fetched

http://hushkit.net/2014/01/09/the-top-t ... ssessment/

Tactics, training and luck are the determining factors in who survives within visual range aerial combat. Despite the modern emphasis on beyond-visual range combat, the vast majority of fighter versus fighter engagements have taken place at close ranges. The following ten are the best fighters for this mission. The order is more or less arbitrary, with different aircraft having the advantage at different altitudes and air speeds. By its nature, any top ten is simplistic and should serve as the basis for discussion rather than as a conclusion.



10. McDonnell Douglas/Boeing F-15 Eagle

Aggressor at Red Flag Alaska

Once considered top dog, the F-15 is now making room for younger aircraft. In exercises, the type still does well, but this says more about the pilot quality than any inherent advantage of this platform in the WVR arena. Well-armed, well-equipped and powerful, it is still an aircraft to be respected. In later exercises against India it is reported to have been able to use superior tactics to defeat Su-30s, despite the Russian aircraft enjoying greater manoeuvrability at low speeds. Powerful and reliable, and flown by some of the best fighter pilots in the world (in USAF service), it remains an adversary worthy of great respect, especially at medium altitudes.

HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: Yes, AIM-9X, Python 4/5

Visual stealth: Poor

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Very good

High alpha performance: Poor

Sustained turn rates: Good (16 degree/sec)

Instantaneous turn rates: Good (21 deg/sec)

9. Chengdu J-10

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Rumours from China describe the J-10 performing well in DACT exercises against the far bigger Su-27/J-11. With a maximum G-rating of +9 / -3 and a maximum sustained turn load of 8.9g, the type has demonstrated impressive performance at several public airshows. It scores highly on turn radius, low visual signature, low-speed capabilities and also has excellent pilot vision.
HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: No, at present only PL-8

Visual stealth: Excellent

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Good

High alpha performance: Good

Sustained turn rates: Good

Instantaneous turn rates: Good

8. General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16

IDF Israeli Air Force American F-16

The Viper remains potent at the mission it was designed for: the close-in dogfight. The Viper has grown fatter with age, so the early Block aircraft are the most spritely, this combined with JHMCS and modern missiles, like the AIM-9X, Python 5 and IRIS-T keep it a foe to respect. It is small and hard for its opponents to keep visual tabs on, it has an impressive turn rate and has better retention of energy than larger-winged peers like the Mirage 2000. Below 10K feet the F-16 is similar in performance to the Typhoon. Most F-16 models have a better thrust to weight ratio than the Super Hornet (when similarly equipped). The Python 5 is regarded as one of the best air-to-air missiles, it has a very large weapon engagement zone (WEZ) and a high resistance to countermeasures. According to one defence writer close to the UK Typhoon force, RAF pilots had greater respect for the F-16s than the Gripens that they have encountered in wargames.

HMD/S: Yes, JHMCS

Advanced SRAAMs: AIM-9X, Python 4/5 and IRIS-T

Visual stealth: Excellent.

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Good

High alpha performance: Good

Sustained turn rates: Good

Instantaneous turn rates: Very good (26deg/sec)

(If all this is too modern for you, have a look at the Top Ten World II fighters)



7. RAC MiG MiG-29

Image

Despite its age the MiG-29 remains a fiercely capable dogfighter, sharing many of the weapon systems of the ‘Flanker’. The Indian Indian MiG-29K/KUB with the TopOwl helmet-mounted and R-73E is the best-equipped variant in the WVR scenario, but is normally limited to 7G, whereas land-based ’29s are 9G capable. When the MiG-35 enters service it will be the most agile fighter in the world in the low speed regime, as anyone who has witnessed the physics defying antics of the MiG-29OVT will testify. Though thrust-vectoring, post-stall manoeuvring must be used very carefully to be effective, the MiG-35’s unsurpassed power -to-weight ratio should ensure it recover lost energy states quickly. The tough structure offers a degree of battlefield protection according to MiG who have assessed the type’s performance in actual wars. According to at least one MiG-29 pilot, the type enjoys a small, but significant advantage over the F-16 in the merge. One USAF F-16C pilot (Mike McCoy of the 510th) who flew BFM against MiG-29s noted “In a low-speed fight, fighting the ‘Fulcrum’ is similar to fighting an F-18 Hornet…But the ‘Fulcrum’ has a thrust advantage over the Hornet. An F-18 can really crank its nose around if you get into a slow-speed fight, but it has to lose altitude to regain the energy, which allows us to get on top of them. The MiG has about the same nose authority at slow speeds, but it can regain energy much faster. Plus the MiG pilots have that forty-five-degree cone in front of them into which they can fire an Archer and eat you up.” Luftwaffe MiG-29 Oberstleutenant Johann Koeck who flew against F-15s, F/A-18s and F-16s in extensive training exercises noted,” Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period.”

Follow my vapour trail on Twitter: @Hush_kit

HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: No, but R-73 is still highly regarded. R-74 in the pipeline.

Visual stealth: Medium (poor in early versions due to smoky engines)

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Excellent

High alpha performance: Excellent

Sustained turn rates: Good

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent (28deg/sec)

6. Saab Gripen

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‘Lose sight, lose the fight‘ is an old dogfighting adage and it is very easy to lose sight of the tiny Gripen. Though not the most powerful fighter, it is agile, well-armed and gives its pilot good situational awareness. Some Gripen operators employ an advanced helmet-mounted sight in conjunction with IRIS-T missiles, a sobering prospect for potential adversaries. The IRIS-T is a highly regraded weapon, with excellent agility and target discrimination. The helmet-sight, is an adaptation of the Typhoon helmet, the most advanced helmet in operational service. The Gripen preserves energy very well, is hard to spot and has the smallest IR signature of the fighters on this list.

(Top Ten Swedish aeroplanes here)

Helmet Mounted Display/Sight: Yes: Cobra

Advanced SRAAMs: IRIS-T

Visual stealth: Excellent

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Good

High Alpha performance: Good

Sustained turn rates: Excellent

Instantaeous turn rates: Very good

5. Dassault Rafale

Image

The Rafale can maintain higher Alpha manoeuvres than the Typhoon. It is very agile, with an excellent man machine interface and the most advanced aircraft cannon. Like most carrier fighters it is docile in the low speed ranges that most within-visual-range fights take place at. Whereas The Typhoon excels at high speed. high altitude manourvreability, the Rafale excels at low speed and low altitude, though its high altitude performance has also impressed French pilots. At sea level the Rafale is reported to have a superior instantaneous turn rate to Typhoon. One pilot who has flown Rafale, and is knowledgeable of the Typhoon’s performance, claims that below 10,000 ft it would ‘eat Typhoon’. The Rafale lacks a helmet-mounted sight and its high alpha performance is inferior to that of the Hornet family. The Rafale has reportedly done well in DACT exercises against the F-22. The Rafale is an extremely tough opponent in the WVR regime. MICA has a LOAL capability allowing targets in the ‘six’o’clock to be engaged.

HMD/S: No

Advanced SRAAMs: Yes, MICA

Visual stealth: Medium

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Very good

High alpha performance: Very good

Sustained turn rates: Very good

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent (especially at low level)

4. McDonnell Douglas/Boeing F/A-18 Hornet/Super Hornet

aircraft-planes_hdwallpaper_f-18-hornet_83825

The Bug family have excellent nose authority, JHMCS and good missiles in the form of AIM-9X (or ASRAAM for RAAF legacy birds). At low level they are the equal of any operational fighter, but at higher altitudes they at disadvantage against more modern aircraft like the Typhoon, Rafale and F-22. The legacy Hornet is 9G rated as opposed to the larger Super Hornet which is stressed up to 7G for normal operations (it is really the legacy F/A-18 that deserves this high ranking but the Super Hornet is also highly regarded in the ‘merge’). It has been noted by F-16 pilots that Super Hornets lose energy quicker than Vipers at higher altitudes. In a slow fight, no Western fighters can match either the Bug or the Rhino. One pilot who has flown the Super Hornet recommended that I mention the ‘Turbo Nose down’, a manoeuvre which utilises the aircraft’s excess power to rapidly push the aircraft out of high alpha flight. Australian Hornets have demonstrated a 180° missile shot with the AIM-132, firing the missile at a target in the firing aircraft’s 6’o’ clock in the lock-on after launch mode. The so-called ‘Parthian Shot‘ is a defensive boon, but demands a wingman with nerves of steel and faith in the technology!

Read more about flying the Super Hornet here and here.

(For the sake of brevity the two F/A-18 family members share one entry.)

HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: ASRAAM, AIM-9X

Visual stealth: Medium

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Good

High alpha performance: Excellent

Sustained turn rates: Good

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent

3. Eurofighter Typhoon

Eurofighter Typhoon performing during the Airpower in Zeltweg, Austria

Wild turn rates, a true 9G performance and enormous excess power make the Typhoon a hell of a dogfighter; the highly regarded G-suits worn by Typhoon pilots increase tolerance to the high forces generated by the energetic Typhoon. It also features the most advanced helmet mounted sight in service (and the newer Striker 2 is, according to one independent tester, ‘superb’), a powerful cannon and the excellent IRIS-T and ASRAAM missiles. The combination of advanced missile and helmet imbue the Typhoon with a terrifying off-boresight missile shot capability. Testing of the Aerodynamic Modification Kit, which includes modified strakes, extended flaperons and mini-leading edge root extensions may go some way to rectify Typhoon’s main limitation – a pedestrian high alpha performance. But the Typhoon is not an ‘angles fighter’ like the F/A-18 which relies on risky (as they drain energy quickly) but startling attacks in the merge; the Typhoon is an ‘energy fighter’ using its phenomenal ability to preserve energy in a dogfight to wear its opponents out. In short, if an opponent doesn’t get a Typhoon on his first attack he is in a very dangerous position as the large amount of excess thrust makes the aircraft a very energetic adversary.

In exercises against Indian Air Force, RAF Typhoons used their superior energy and acceleration to ‘reliably’ trounce Su-30MKIs.

F-22 pilots who ‘fought’ the Typhoon in DACT were impressed by its energy levels (especially in the first turn) and several Luftwaffe aircraft proudly displayed Raptor ‘kill’ silhouettes beneath their cockpits. Like the Raptor, the Typhoon has such a formidable reputation that any ‘victories’ against it in training exercises make excellent boasts. At medium to high altitudes the type is generally superior to the teen fighters in the WVR regime. According to one Typhoon pilot, its dog-fighting abilities are a close match to the Raptor’s, but Typhoon benefits from being smaller and better armed.

HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: ASRAAM, IRIS-T

Visual stealth: Medium

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Excellent

High alpha performance: Poor

Sustained turn rates: Excellent

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent

2. Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor

Image

The Raptor’s excellent power-to-weight ratio, low wing-loading and 2D thrust-vectoring make it a fierce opponent in the visual range dogfight. It is let down by its elderly short range air-to-air missiles, lack of helmet-mounted sight and its large size. The internal carriage of its AIM-9M limits the way they can be used, and it only carries two. According to Typhoon pilots who ‘fought’ against it, the Raptor loses energy very quickly when employing thrust vectoring. The Raptor pilot likes to keep the fight high and fast. The F-22 has never been seriously challenged in wargames or DACT exercises- though the WVR regime is not its strongest card it is still extremely hard to beat, to the point that any ‘kills’ scored by pilots against the Raptor become newsworthy. Its pilots are, outside of adversary units, probably the best in the world.

HMD/S: No

Advanced SRAAMs: No

Visual stealth: Poor

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Excellent

High Alpha performance: Excellent

Sustained turn rates: Excellent (28 deg/sec at 20K ft)

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent

1. Sukhoi Su-35

13_11_08_27_sm

The Sukhoi Su-27 is no slouch in the dogfight, and this advanced derivative is even more potent; the fighter, which is now in service with the Russian air force in small numbers, benefits from an additional 7,000Ibs of thrust combined with a variety of refinements. The Su-35’s engines, at maximum reheat, generate a staggering 62,000Ibs of thrust, which when combined with the ‘Flanker’ series superb aerodynamic configuration and vectored thrust nozzles, create an aircraft unparalleled in low-speed manoeuvrability. Whereas the F-22 relies on two dimensional thrust vectoring, the Su-35 utilises 3D nozzles that have perfected over the last thirty years. A Su-35 (ably demonstrated by Sergei Bogdan) held the crowds of Paris 2013 spellbound with its demonstration of dramatic post-stall manoeuvring.

The biggest question mark with the Su-35s within-range combat effectiveness is the degree to which the enormous thrust and robust engines aid energy preservation. The Su-35 unique abilities will require unique tactics – if flown by well-trained pilots, the Su-35 will prove a worthy adversary to any in-service fighter in the vicious world of the low-speed furball.

HMD/S: Yes

Advanced SRAAMs: R-73E/M

Visual stealth: Poor

Thrust-to-weight ratio: Excellent

High alpha performance: Excellent

Sustained turn rates: Excellent

Instantaneous turn rates: Excellent



So there we have it, or do we?

I asked a fighter pilot (with experience of flying most of the ‘4.5 generation’ fighter aircraft) his opinion on my top ten selection; he was keen to dismiss such a crude approach:

“It is complicated to discuss this issue in just a few words, but in order to produce a new look analysis on WVR, you should think about gyroscopic vs needle ‘driving styles’ (and the capabilities needed to play this or that, of course). So, you will pass through power-to-weight ratio, rudder surfaces, flying characteristics across different flight levels, etc. Until you get to the crucial area of energy management (that sifts the ace from the targets). It is all a question of control of the part of the egg you want to keep the fight, and well-trained pilots with good tactics will always try to keep the fight in a corner where they have some advantage. We’re not talking about an UFC card! It is team work.

The tactical egg is an imaginary bubble that represents all possible motions of an aircraft in a dogfight, showing the effects of gravity on the aircraft’s manoeuvring. Of course, new weapons (with the ability to lock-on after launch), helmet mounted sight, etc. are making the job much more complex.

Conclusion: This question requests hours of conversation and a dozen beers! ”

What do you guys think of his list?

[basher54321]

Tactics, training and luck are the determining factors in who survives within visual range aerial combat.

Yes but true for all aerial combat.

Despite the modern emphasis on beyond-visual range combat, the vast majority of fighter versus fighter engagements have taken place at close ranges.

The "vast majority" of fighter v fighter engagements took place between 1915 and 1980

The following ten are the best fighters for this mission. The order is more or less arbitrary, with different aircraft having the advantage at different altitudes and air speeds. By its nature, any top ten is simplistic and should serve as the basis for discussion rather than as a conclusion.

He is right there - it is extremely simplistic and limited in understanding.

[eloise]

What do you guys think of his list?

I havent read all of it , but there a few thing wrong in my opinion

For example : F-22 sustain 28 degree/sec at 20K ft , that sound pretty unbelievable to be

[zero-one]

What do you guys think of his list?

I havent read all of it , but there a few thing wrong in my opinion

For example : F-22 sustain 28 degree/sec at 20K ft , that sound pretty unbelievable to be

We have heared of the 28 degree/sec sustained turn many times already, and honestly its not too far fetched.
Here are a few possibilities.

1. The F-22 always flies in a clean profile with enormous thrust and extreamly low wing loading, body lift optimization and lets not forget, thrust vectoring. In a light configuration, the Raptor may be able to pull off this amazing feat.

2. Speed was never mentioned, at extremely slow speeds, aided by thrust vectoring, a 28 deg/sec sustained turn is possible.

[eloise]

We have heared of the 28 degree/sec sustained turn many times already, and honestly its not too far fetched.
Here are a few possibilities.

1. The F-22 always flies in a clean profile with enormous thrust and extreamly low wing loading, body lift optimization and lets not forget, thrust vectoring. In a light configuration, the Raptor may be able to pull off this amazing feat.

2. Speed was never mentioned, at extremely slow speeds, aided by thrust vectoring, a 28 deg/sec sustained turn is possible.

You know he talking about sustained turn and not even instantaneous turn right ? and not at sea level either , he said it happened at 20K ft
Lower speed there will be less lift , which make it even worse
air at sea level is 1.8 times thicker than at 20K ft , so if Raptor can sustained 28 degree/sec , it will be able to sustain something like 51 degree/sec at sea level that just sound very wrong

[johnwill]

[zero-one]

We have heared of the 28 degree/sec sustained turn many times already, and honestly its not too far fetched.
Here are a few possibilities.

1. The F-22 always flies in a clean profile with enormous thrust and extreamly low wing loading, body lift optimization and lets not forget, thrust vectoring. In a light configuration, the Raptor may be able to pull off this amazing feat.

2. Speed was never mentioned, at extremely slow speeds, aided by thrust vectoring, a 28 deg/sec sustained turn is possible.

You know he talking about sustained turn and not even instantaneous turn right ? and not at sea level either , he said it happened at 20K ft
Lower speed there will be less lift , which make it even worse
air at sea level is 1.8 times thicker than at 20K ft , so if Raptor can sustained 28 degree/sec , it will be able to sustain something like 51 degree/sec at sea level that just sound very wrong

Well its one thing to look at it and say "hey that doesn't sound right" and another thing to actually fly it and see that it can.

Even F-15 drivers claim that the Raptor can do the 28 deg/sec turn. We are in no position to dispute their claims

[eloise]

:roll:

did i say something inaccurate john?

[count_to_10]

:roll:

did i say something inaccurate john?

Actually, I'm kind of curious which comment John was responding to.