F-22 export ban

[oldiaf]

Why there is an export ban on the F-22 while not on F-35 ?? The F-35 family have more advance sensors and avionics than the F-22 ... And regarding security IP .. Chineese hacked F-35 data from LM itself to build their own stealth fighter.... How the US is willing to sell an aircraft that can shoot down its premier air superiority fighter ( naturally not by friendly allies but enemy states that can hack the F-35 data and reverse engineering it ) !!.

[eloise]

F-22 electric equipment such as radar, RWR, central computer, chips.. etc wasn't designed to prevent reverse engineering while F-35 does
. For exact detail you can ask SpudmanWP, he posted the details links before, i cant be bothered to dig it up now

[checksixx]

Why there is an export ban on the F-22 while not on F-35 ?? The F-35 family have more advance sensors and avionics than the F-22 ... And regarding security IP .. Chineese hacked F-35 data from LM itself to build their own stealth fighter.... How the US is willing to sell an aircraft that can shoot down its premier air superiority fighter ( naturally not by friendly allies but enemy states that can hack the F-35 data and reverse engineering it ) !!.

There never was an export ban on the F-22. There was an amendment introduced that prohibited the funding allotted to the F-22 program to be used to develop an export variant. Aside from that any nation, that they were willing to sell too (which they declined all offers outright), would have had to pay the entire bill to develop an export variant. IMO the only reason they shot Japan down (who was the only one willing to pay the piper AFAIK) is that 'they' wanted to kill the F-22 program.

Show me anything where the Chinese have reverse engineered the F-35. They have some decent design copies of the Raptor...

Why do you assume the -35 would be able to easily shoot down a -22??

[oldiaf]

Why there is an export ban on the F-22 while not on F-35 ?? The F-35 family have more advance sensors and avionics than the F-22 ... And regarding security IP .. Chineese hacked F-35 data from LM itself to build their own stealth fighter.... How the US is willing to sell an aircraft that can shoot down its premier air superiority fighter ( naturally not by friendly allies but enemy states that can hack the F-35 data and reverse engineering it ) !!.

There never was an export ban on the F-22. There was an amendment introduced that prohibited the funding allotted to the F-22 program to be used to develop an export variant. Aside from that any nation, that they were willing to sell too (which they declined all offers outright), would have had to pay the entire bill to develop an export variant. IMO the only reason they shot Japan down (who was the only one willing to pay the piper AFAIK) is that 'they' wanted to kill the F-22 program.

Show me anything where the Chinese have reverse engineered the F-35. They have some decent design copies of the Raptor...

Why do you assume the -35 would be able to easily shoot down a -22??

Regarding the ban :
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:HZ00295:
Chineese hack :
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB124027491029837401
One last thing its not I who assume the idea regarding the ability of the F-35 to shoot down the F-22 but a large number of the crowd in this forum and this hypothetical question is directed to them.

[SpudmanWP]

RE that link about the hack...

The intruders compromised the system responsible for diagnosing a plane's maintenance problems during flight, according to officials familiar with the matter. However, the plane's most vital systems -- such as flight controls and sensors -- are physically isolated from the publicly accessible Internet, they said.

They basically broke into ALIS. Good luck reverse engineering the plane from that info.

[oldiaf]

RE that link about the hack...

The intruders compromised the system responsible for diagnosing a plane's maintenance problems during flight, according to officials familiar with the matter. However, the plane's most vital systems -- such as flight controls and sensors -- are physically isolated from the publicly accessible Internet, they said.

They basically broke into ALIS. Good luck reverse engineering the plane from that info.

They built their stealth planes after all , didn't they ?!!

[SpudmanWP]

Russia, the UK, and Germany have all build "stealth" planes yet nobody claims they have hacked the F-35.

[quicksilver]

"There never was an export ban on the F-22..."

House Amendment 295 of H.R. 2266 of the 105th Congress says otherwise --

https://www.congress.gov/amendment/105t ... ndment/295

[SpudmanWP]

"There never was an export ban on the F-22..."

House Amendment 295 of H.R. 2266 of the 105th Congress says otherwise --

https://www.congress.gov/amendment/105t ... ndment/295

He was technically correct.

The Obey amendment only bans use of funds in that year's Defense Appropriations Act in order to develop an Export version of the F-22. If the DoD approved an FMS sale that involved the customer paying for all development then Congress would have had to take additional actions to block the sale.

They also could have done it with government funds in later years unless Congress again adds the the funds provision in the budget.

[quicksilver]

From the link (verbatim) --

"Page 100, after line 15, insert the following new section: \ SEC. 8103. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of F-22 advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government.

Purpose:
An amendment to prohibit the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government.

House Amendment Code:
(A008)

House Tally Clerks use this code to manage amendment information."

You wanna quibble? Argue with the Congress.

[SpudmanWP]

So how does not using funds from this one bill (covering one fiscal year only) for the express purposes of development & sale of an Export F-22 mean a lifetime ban on said development & sale when no US funds are used?

[checksixx]

From the link (verbatim) --

"Page 100, after line 15, insert the following new section: \ SEC. 8103. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the sale of F-22 advanced tactical fighter to any foreign government.

Purpose:
An amendment to prohibit the sale of F-22 aircraft to any foreign government.

House Amendment Code:
(A008)

House Tally Clerks use this code to manage amendment information."

You wanna quibble? Argue with the Congress.

Absolutely...yes, that is the exact wording...for those who care not to actually read it. Obey was all paranoid and wanted to ban foreign sales. So yes, that is his purpose for the amendment. As I stated though, it did NOT prohibit foreign sales...its right there in black and white....None of the funds approved in the act could be used for those purposes. If he wanted an outright ban, he failed...hence the reason why there was talks with Japan over funding an export version well AFTER this amendment.

[checksixx]

So how does not using funds from this one bill (covering one fiscal year only) for the express purposes of development & sale of an Export F-22 mean a lifetime ban on said development & sale when no US funds are used?

"The budget justification materials submitted to Congress in support of
the budget of the Department of Defense for fiscal year 1999, and
subsequent fiscal years, shall provide complete, detailed estimates for
the incremental costs of such expansion."

[checksixx]

One last thing its not I who assume the idea regarding the ability of the F-35 to shoot down the F-22 but a large number of the crowd in this forum and this hypothetical question is directed to them.

Guess I've missed that huge crowd around here...

Given the choice, whether BVR or WVR, I'd take the -22 any day of the week and even on Sunday.

[SpudmanWP]

and subsequent fiscal years, shall provide complete, detailed estimates for
the incremental costs of such expansion."

You're misreading it.

Here is the whole quote in context.

Sec. 8116. The budget of the President
for fiscal year 1999 submitted to Congress pursuant to section 1105 of
title 31, United States Code, and each annual budget request thereafter,
shall include budget activity groups (known as "subactivities'') in the
operation and maintenance accounts of the military departments and other
appropriation accounts, as may be necessary, to separately identify all
costs incurred by the Department of Defense to support the expansion of
the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

[[Page 111 STAT. 1246]]

The budget justification materials submitted to Congress in support of
the budget of the Department of Defense for fiscal year 1999, and
subsequent fiscal years, shall provide complete, detailed estimates for
the incremental costs of such expansion.

Sec. 8117. None of the funds made available in this Act may be
obligated or expended to enter into or renew a contract with a
contractor that is subject to the reporting requirement set forth in
subsection (d) of section 4212 of title 38, United States Code, but has
not submitted the most recent report required by such subsection for
1997 or a subsequent year.
Sec. 8118. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used
to approve or license the sale of the F-22 advanced tactical fighter to
any foreign government.

Your quote on was in relation to 8116, not the F-22 relevant section of 8118 which is the only place in the entire budget doc where the F-22 was mentioned.