MiG-29 vs F-16
- Elite 2K
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- Joined: 05 Sep 2003, 20:36
OK so you sat in a cockpit of jet. Did you fly the MiG-21?
Did you fly ACM?
Did you fly a MiG-29SMT against a Block 50 F-16 in ACM?
Unless the answer is yes to all then your statements like:
are just so many electrons....
Did you fly ACM?
Did you fly a MiG-29SMT against a Block 50 F-16 in ACM?
Unless the answer is yes to all then your statements like:
The best MiG-29 is the Russian upgrade MiG-29SMT... It Beats the Block 50 in A2A
are just so many electrons....
Reality Is For People Who Can't Handle Simulation
- Forum Veteran
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- Joined: 07 Nov 2003, 21:12
MiG21bisHZS wrote:The best MiG-29 is the Russian upgrade MiG-29SMT... It Beats the Block 50 in A2A but the Block 50 beats the SMT in A2G... as always.
hi MiG21bisHZS, with my limited knowledge, I have no dispute of the SMT could be the best Fulcrum. But I am too intrigued by the second statement. Sounds like one statement made after a thorough research. I'm all ears.
Thanks,
Last edited by Pumpkin on 20 Jul 2004, 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
Desmond
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- Joined: 19 Jul 2004, 02:18
habu2 wrote:OK so you sat in a cockpit of jet. Did you fly the MiG-21?
Did you fly ACM?
Did you fly a MiG-29SMT against a Block 50 F-16 in ACM?
Unless the answer is yes to all then your statements like:The best MiG-29 is the Russian upgrade MiG-29SMT... It Beats the Block 50 in A2A
are just so many electrons....
I have been in a MiG-21 3 times.
Took controles on my last ride.
No I did not fly ACM.Only in formation.
MiG-29SMT.... no I did not.. have you?
http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig29smt.htm
Some Info......
Anyways I apologise,... I ment the MiG-29M2... sorry for any confusion
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What do you mean my data is in accurate... the SMT or M2( which I didn't even post anything about).
- Elite 3K
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- Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 20:08
"Modern" version of MiG-29 = Unproven BVR
F-16 AMRAAM = Proven BVR
Again if both sides have HOBs_Helmet_Heaters, it won't be a very productive fight for either side.
Don't think I'd want to face the improved versions of AMRAAM -
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1126.html
With an unproven BVR.
Its time for the MiG-29 to retire. It just gets its face trampled down in the mud every time it shows up for a real shooting fight V an F-15 or F-16. The Post 9/11 shoot down of two Syrian MiG-29s by IDF F-15s was especially humiliating. That was HOBs_Helmet_Heater range so there is no excuse from the POS MiG-29A of: "my BVR avionics suck,... it wasn't fair...."
Date____Unit_______Shooter__________Victim________
14Sep01..106 Sqn.....F-15C Python-IV....MiG-29A SyAAF
14Sep01..106 Sqn.....F-15C AIM-9M........MiG-29A SyAAF
_______________________________________________
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_270.shtml
F-16 AMRAAM = Proven BVR
Again if both sides have HOBs_Helmet_Heaters, it won't be a very productive fight for either side.
Don't think I'd want to face the improved versions of AMRAAM -
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article1126.html
With an unproven BVR.
Its time for the MiG-29 to retire. It just gets its face trampled down in the mud every time it shows up for a real shooting fight V an F-15 or F-16. The Post 9/11 shoot down of two Syrian MiG-29s by IDF F-15s was especially humiliating. That was HOBs_Helmet_Heater range so there is no excuse from the POS MiG-29A of: "my BVR avionics suck,... it wasn't fair...."
Date____Unit_______Shooter__________Victim________
14Sep01..106 Sqn.....F-15C Python-IV....MiG-29A SyAAF
14Sep01..106 Sqn.....F-15C AIM-9M........MiG-29A SyAAF
_______________________________________________
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_270.shtml
- ELP -
- Newbie
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Ever thought about about the fact that pilot trainig and experience is also a big factor in air combat and that rules of engagement also play a big role?
The fact is that you don't know what the situation was (or at least not from the article you mention) and who jumped onto who. Because if you are defensive from the start and your offender knows what he's doing, you die within the next 15 seconds barely knowing what happened to you, even if you have the best aircraft and best missiles in the world (with or without helmet mounted sight).
On the other hand if you jump onto two enemies and manage to become defensive and both die, than I'd say you are not very good at what you do, even if you'd have superior aircraft and weapons, and you should better stay home.
The only situation where you could really say something about the aircraft and pilot skills, would be if they would merge neutrally, but in the battle arena this rarely happens.
Now my opinion is that even if they would have had F-22's, the Syrians would have had their buts kicked since I don't think that their training level and tactics is on the level of any self-respecting air force.
The fact is that you don't know what the situation was (or at least not from the article you mention) and who jumped onto who. Because if you are defensive from the start and your offender knows what he's doing, you die within the next 15 seconds barely knowing what happened to you, even if you have the best aircraft and best missiles in the world (with or without helmet mounted sight).
On the other hand if you jump onto two enemies and manage to become defensive and both die, than I'd say you are not very good at what you do, even if you'd have superior aircraft and weapons, and you should better stay home.
The only situation where you could really say something about the aircraft and pilot skills, would be if they would merge neutrally, but in the battle arena this rarely happens.
Now my opinion is that even if they would have had F-22's, the Syrians would have had their buts kicked since I don't think that their training level and tactics is on the level of any self-respecting air force.
- Forum Veteran
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- Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 19:47
There is no doubt that the Russians are trying to solve the MiG-29's fuel problem, the hunchback idea seems very practical, it works with the F-16 on the sides, why wouldn't it on the back?
The fighter is not what counts, it's the one who's flying it that matters!
- Active Member
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- Joined: 29 Nov 2004, 23:49
I like the DF video too, but the intention of the author is obvious 
Lets check an account of an west-german pilot who flew MiG-29 A (export) against western planes:
r the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!
"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ‘Archer’ which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight.
Link is: http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig29site2.htm
Of cause F-16 has better electronics, but keep in mind, it surpasses the MiG in BVR since around 1993. There is little doubt, that newer MiG-29 variants have similar or better A2A equipment than F-16s block 60.
The german MiGs are not completely equipped. Their radar lacks at least 3 odes, inluding RWS, They have no ECM suite, as
the standard Ru - MiG. It has just a simple IFF and not Datalink. So deration is obvious.
What remains is the superiour airframe for A2A. They are pretty even at low altitude but fighting higher the maneuvrebility advantage of the MiG is more pronounced. MiGs greatest disadvantage is the fuel capacity which is enlarged in the newer versions. But keep in mind, MiG is designed as a frontline fighter, able to operate from small and rough fields close to FLET. Never try this with an F-16.
I agree that F-16s greatest weaknees is its high wingloading, which compromises its combat abilities being loaded with a reasonable payload. (E.g. 2 BVRAAM, 4 WVRAAM in a high threat scenario)
Lets check an account of an west-german pilot who flew MiG-29 A (export) against western planes:
r the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!
"They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the ‘Archer’ which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight.
Link is: http://www.aeronautics.ru/mig29site2.htm
Of cause F-16 has better electronics, but keep in mind, it surpasses the MiG in BVR since around 1993. There is little doubt, that newer MiG-29 variants have similar or better A2A equipment than F-16s block 60.
The german MiGs are not completely equipped. Their radar lacks at least 3 odes, inluding RWS, They have no ECM suite, as
the standard Ru - MiG. It has just a simple IFF and not Datalink. So deration is obvious.
What remains is the superiour airframe for A2A. They are pretty even at low altitude but fighting higher the maneuvrebility advantage of the MiG is more pronounced. MiGs greatest disadvantage is the fuel capacity which is enlarged in the newer versions. But keep in mind, MiG is designed as a frontline fighter, able to operate from small and rough fields close to FLET. Never try this with an F-16.
I agree that F-16s greatest weaknees is its high wingloading, which compromises its combat abilities being loaded with a reasonable payload. (E.g. 2 BVRAAM, 4 WVRAAM in a high threat scenario)
- Active Member
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- Joined: 29 Nov 2004, 23:49
I think the RuAF is the deadliest MiG operator.
It remains unclear what standards their MiGs represent, but their tactics and experience should be well ahead of the export users.
It remains unclear what standards their MiGs represent, but their tactics and experience should be well ahead of the export users.
Last edited by CheckSix on 22 Dec 2004, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
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