F-106 Delta Dart versus F-16 Viper

[Raptor_One]

Raptor_One,

The danger at that high of an altitude comes with the air pressure being so low that you get the "bends" just like a scuba diver as the dissolved gases in your blood form into bubbles and cause massive pain and possible death .

The suit has the same pressure inside it all the time. When in the pressurized cockpit, it doesn't look inflated only because the cockpit has the same pressure as the inside of the suit. Remove the pressure on the outside of the suit and now it looks inflated - think of taking a bag of chips from sea level to 8,000 or 10,000 feet. The bag looks fairly "flat" or non pressurized at sea level, but looks like it's been pressurized at altitude .

The danger comes from not having the suit and suffering the consequences. Even with the suit "inflated" due to low outside air pressure, you're still alive, conscious, and functional enough to control the jet. It may be more difficult to move, but not nearly impossible .

Here's some good links for some interesting info on the full pressure suits worn by the pilots flying the A-12, M-21, YF-12A, SR-71, U-2, and some Space Shuttle missions .

http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.co ... clark.html

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/press_suit001.html

http://www.davidclark.com/

Whoops... I misread what Roscoe wrote. I gave myself the impression that he was talking about a normal flight suit. I've been spending the last two days (and most of the last two nights too) trying to relearn C++ and it's fried my brain good. Yeah, I actually do know that stuff about pressure suits you just pointed out to me (although I sounded like a total idiot from my last post). Doh!

[Roscoe]

Interesting. Thanks for answering. But now I'm curious... if no injury happened to you when you became "Michelin Man", where does the danger from cockpit depressurization come from in the real jet? Just the inability to maintain control of your jet because your suit is blown up like a balloon? Or would that inflation effect actually be so extreme that when trapped in a small cockpit you might get suffocated or otherwise rendered unconscious/injured? When you experienced the rapid decompression, were you seated in something approximating a fighter-sized cockpit? Regardless of your initial position, what did the inflation of the suit do to your ability to move your limbs, breath, etc. I assume it wasn't that bad since you thought it was pretty cool.

They wouldn't design a suit that would suffocate or bind the pilot.

When the suit expanded it definitely became more difficult to move. In the chamber, there was a fake stick to grab and pretend to fly...it was pretty tough. Keep in mind though that as the plane descends, the pressure increases and the suit softens.

[Raptor_One]

Hehe... Roscoe, I was so out of it last night I thought you were talking about some sort of special flight suit, not a pressure suit. Very silly me.

[dartphantomviperpuke]

"The danger at that high of an altitude comes with the air pressure being so low that you get the "bends"..."

The primary concern was the lack of TUC (time of useful consciousnous) you had with that low of an ambient atmosphere, even with diluter demand or (as in the 6) 100% O2 under pressure. That time was measured in seconds b4 you'd be gooey-woo-woo.

[parrothead]

I stand corrected - thanks .

I wasn't thinking about time of useful consciousness, but that is one heckuva big concern up there! I must've been thinking more about the Blackbird and U-2 pilots way up high .

[HunterKiller]

Funniest competition I've ever read

F-106 against AIM-120 equipped Falcon has virtually no chance.

Even if Dart is better at high altitudes, nobody forces F-16 pilot to go that high where he cannot turn fast.

What weapons will Dart use? Nuclear-armed Genie? Or falcon? 60 years old first generation crap that will never hit 9g maneuvering target.

I think that only interceptors that really have speed advantage over Viper are Soviet Mig-25 Foxbat and Mig-31 Foxhoud. If properly driven, they have big chance to run avay even from missiles, if they get proper warning.

[SixShooter]

Funniest competition I've ever read

F-106 against AIM-120 equipped Falcon has virtually no chance.

Agreed entirely. You cannot compare apples to oranges, nor bomber interceptors to modern fighters. The Dart will forever be my favorite aircraft but against a Falcon, there is no battle in ACM.

What weapons will Dart use? Nuclear-armed Genie? Or falcon? 60 years old first generation crap that will never hit 9g maneuvering target.

Well, let's see...

AIM-4 - the Falcon (F16 and not the missile) easily moves out of the way. The AIM-4 was a bomber killer and never a fighter killer (despite 5 kills in Vietnam)

M-61 20mm - The Dart would never get close enough to use it.

AIR-2 Genie - Hehe....no more F-16. 9G maneuver makes no difference against a nuke. Of course, everything has to be perfect for the F-106 pilot to escape the blast as well...presuming the Dart did not get shot down during AIR2 launch.

[delta2014]

Out of all of the Century Series fighter aircraft, was the F-106 Delta Dart the best dogfighter of all?

[dragracingmaniac]

F-106 vs F-16 fight...that's like the Mike Ditka vs God fight.

[madrat]

F-106A was virtually frozen in development for its last few years. At the end of its life it probably outnumbered the in-service F-16C model.

If you limit it to F-106A versus F-16A it depends on the fight parameters. Put F-16A above 36,000 feet and it really has no advantage in the day unless the Delta Dart decided to get slow.

If F-106A had been continuously upgraded and SLEP programs kept up with the times, maybe your bay carries 2-4 AMRAAM, another pair outboard the wingtanks, and your IRST upgraded to be on the level of Typhoon. Maybe they stay with Falcon and upgrade it to 1990's technology, both radar and IR guided versions fired in paired ripples. Maybe it even gets a radar in line with 1990s technology. It wouldn't improve its dogfight attributes, but certainly you wouldn't charge into battle against one.

[F-16ADF]

Out of all the Century Series jets, it is probably safe to say the the F-106 was indeed the best dog-fighter.

I like the F-106 a lot. I remember seeing 87th FIS jets fly down from Marquette back in the early 1980's. Even though I was a young kid, I thought the Delta Dart was simply just beautiful..


I emailed CDR Chesire (US Naval Aviator who flew the F-4B/J and F-14A) a few years ago about the F-4 vs F-106. He told me that he flew against ADC F-106's in early 1970's College Dart DACT exercises. Mr. Chesire went on to say that the F-106 had a very good first turn (the first few seconds of the turn) ((a trait which deltas are generally known for))), but he said that after the first turn the Delta Dart would bleed down airspeed and he in his Phantom would wait and then pounce. He would also use the Phantom's sheer power in the vertical to defeat the delta. Generally he thought the F-106 was a tough opponent for that time, but not better.

He never flew the slatted Navy Phantom (F-4S) so I cannot add anything to that. But even Bruce Gordon (ADC F-106 pilot, on youtube) said that the slatted Phantom was at least equal to or better than the F-106 in ACM. The slats improved turn rate, radius, and G albeit at the loss of some top-end airspeed.



It seemed like a different story for the USAF hardwing Phantoms, which tended to get beat up against the Six in simulated ACM. Probably more due to lack of pilot BFM training. The Navy guys did much better (due to their training from early TOPGUN experience).

The 1961 flyoff was against a Navy squadron that generally had no dog-fight experience. The ADC guys tended to best them in some aspects of the horizontal. F-4B Phantom was better in everything else.


Sending the F-106 to Vietnam would probably have yielded a similar outcome as with the early Phantoms. No internal gun, poor missiles, No SSIFTs, a sheer giant target (even bigger than the F-4). The Mig-17 and 21 probably would not have had much difficulty at all against the delta winged jet.



F-16 v F-106, Viper wins easily in every parameter. No comparison-

[juretrn]

I emailed CDR Chesire (US Naval Aviator who flew the F-4B/J and F-14A)

This same Chesire?
https://www.quora.com/profile/John-Chesire

[F-16ADF]

Yes, they are the same person.

His personal website is: http://flitetime.net


CDR Chesire was kind enough to answer nearly every question on the F-4 and F-14 that I have ever sent him.