Eurofighter vs F-16/F-15
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Aviation Week and Space Technology (AW&ST), 2000/03/13:
According the declaration of LM, the radar of F-16E could detect the target of RCS= 1m2 class 70~80 miles away (about 112 ~ 129 km), which is 10~20 miles longer than the AN/APG-63 of F-15C.
PS: The tracking range of a fighter's radar is often about 2/3 of the radar's detective range. According to the AFM's report, the UK's test-pilot emphasized that Captor can "track", not just detect, the target of RCS = 5m2 (MIG-29) 160~185 km away.
On the contrary, according to the Aviation Week and Space Technoledge, 2000/02/07 and 2000/03/13, the detective / tracking range of APG-80 maybe either:
a. (2000/02/07):
The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 1m2 class is 112 km away
-->The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 167 km away theoretically, roughly equal to the perfomence of Captor (However, this data is from the private estimation of AW&ST).
or
b. (2000/03/13):
The maximal effective detective range to the target of RCS= 1m2 class is 112~129 km away (This data is from the declaration of LM).
-->The maximal effective detective range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 167~192 km away
-->The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 111~128 km away theoretically, about 60~80% perfomence of Captor radar.
According the declaration of LM, the radar of F-16E could detect the target of RCS= 1m2 class 70~80 miles away (about 112 ~ 129 km), which is 10~20 miles longer than the AN/APG-63 of F-15C.
PS: The tracking range of a fighter's radar is often about 2/3 of the radar's detective range. According to the AFM's report, the UK's test-pilot emphasized that Captor can "track", not just detect, the target of RCS = 5m2 (MIG-29) 160~185 km away.
On the contrary, according to the Aviation Week and Space Technoledge, 2000/02/07 and 2000/03/13, the detective / tracking range of APG-80 maybe either:
a. (2000/02/07):
The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 1m2 class is 112 km away
-->The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 167 km away theoretically, roughly equal to the perfomence of Captor (However, this data is from the private estimation of AW&ST).
or
b. (2000/03/13):
The maximal effective detective range to the target of RCS= 1m2 class is 112~129 km away (This data is from the declaration of LM).
-->The maximal effective detective range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 167~192 km away
-->The maximal effective tracking range to the target of RCS= 5m2 class should be about 111~128 km away theoretically, about 60~80% perfomence of Captor radar.
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Nice info! 
Ok, the captor probably has the best range. Now we would have to consider the different advantages and disadvantages of an AESA radar vs an AMSAR radar, and their respective ECM suites ( the block 60 carries the AN/ALQ-165..). To my knowledge AESA radars are harder to jam, and also to detect.
With good jammers and good RWRs, an F-16 might be able to jam the captor as soon as it's turned on and get close enough to detect it and get a shot. If the typhoon's RCS is in reality 0.5m2, it could track it at 70km or so.
(Btw, according to your figures, the F-16E could shoot at a mig-29 (RCS~5m2) from 120km and at a su-30 (RCS~10m2) from 135km. And those are the ones that are the most likely to be encoutered by the viper.. )
Ok, the captor probably has the best range. Now we would have to consider the different advantages and disadvantages of an AESA radar vs an AMSAR radar, and their respective ECM suites ( the block 60 carries the AN/ALQ-165..). To my knowledge AESA radars are harder to jam, and also to detect.
With good jammers and good RWRs, an F-16 might be able to jam the captor as soon as it's turned on and get close enough to detect it and get a shot. If the typhoon's RCS is in reality 0.5m2, it could track it at 70km or so.
(Btw, according to your figures, the F-16E could shoot at a mig-29 (RCS~5m2) from 120km and at a su-30 (RCS~10m2) from 135km. And those are the ones that are the most likely to be encoutered by the viper.. )
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do you guys mind giving me the formula for finding out the range of a radar able to track its target ccompared with its RCS, please, thank you
wow, this is such an amazing forum, hope to learna lot here, does anyyone have a really good site that has the RCS's of numerous aircraft?
Thank you, dorry for bothering you guys
wow, this is such an amazing forum, hope to learna lot here, does anyyone have a really good site that has the RCS's of numerous aircraft?
Thank you, dorry for bothering you guys
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You can get the formula at this site:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/ ... G/PGSA.htm
This site also provides the datas of detective range of many mordern AWACS/fighters' radar and frontal RCS of many fighters in the world. However, according to the military information I know, these datas may not be 100% accurate..........
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/ ... G/PGSA.htm
This site also provides the datas of detective range of many mordern AWACS/fighters' radar and frontal RCS of many fighters in the world. However, according to the military information I know, these datas may not be 100% accurate..........
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People, people, people....
The one thing I haven't heard being mentioned is...(drumroll please)....the PILOT! Ya know, that carbon based-lifeform that sits up front? Everyone's talkin' AESA-this and BVR-that. It doesn't mean jack unless you've got a guy or gal that knows how to employ all those tricks effectively.
Ya wanna really evaluate how effective Typhoon will be? Bring it to a Red Flag for a couple of weeks and let's see how it fares in an almost-real world scenario. What kinda sortie rates will it have. How 'bout mission-ready percentages. How often can it fly in one day before the wrench-turners need to take it away from the pilot? It can be the most cosmic jet on the planet but it won't matter if it's sittin' on the ramp for maintenance more than flying.
All of the stuff everyone's brought up is great. Sounds like it's got more than one rabbit up its sleeve. But those traits in and of themselves won't win a war. You need to view it in the context of the total battle plan and how it will contribute to ultimate victory (or defeat). Until I see some proven combat effectiveness numbers on Typhoon I still say both the Eagle AND the Viper have the advantage because of their proven combat track records and the modernization programs currently underway on both of 'em.
The one thing I haven't heard being mentioned is...(drumroll please)....the PILOT! Ya know, that carbon based-lifeform that sits up front? Everyone's talkin' AESA-this and BVR-that. It doesn't mean jack unless you've got a guy or gal that knows how to employ all those tricks effectively.
Ya wanna really evaluate how effective Typhoon will be? Bring it to a Red Flag for a couple of weeks and let's see how it fares in an almost-real world scenario. What kinda sortie rates will it have. How 'bout mission-ready percentages. How often can it fly in one day before the wrench-turners need to take it away from the pilot? It can be the most cosmic jet on the planet but it won't matter if it's sittin' on the ramp for maintenance more than flying.
All of the stuff everyone's brought up is great. Sounds like it's got more than one rabbit up its sleeve. But those traits in and of themselves won't win a war. You need to view it in the context of the total battle plan and how it will contribute to ultimate victory (or defeat). Until I see some proven combat effectiveness numbers on Typhoon I still say both the Eagle AND the Viper have the advantage because of their proven combat track records and the modernization programs currently underway on both of 'em.
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I wonder how th MIDS would help reduce the radar disadvantage of the F-16. If an AWACS can detect a typhoon from far, the F-16s may know where they are.. And since new AMRAAMs can be guided on info coming from an AWACS..
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The MIDS and AWACS are also the complements that EF-2000 has, if an AWACS of F-16 side can detect a typhoon from a far range, then the AWACS of EF-2000 side will still detect the F-16 from the much further range.
By the way, I don't think the AWACS today can provide every data that is necessary for firing the AMRAAM without the help of fighter's radar (although it may provide some of the necessary datas that it can save the time and workload of the fighter's pilot and radar...........). If it can, why don't the air-forces of western countries put some BVRAAMs with very long range directly on it ????
By the way, I don't think the AWACS today can provide every data that is necessary for firing the AMRAAM without the help of fighter's radar (although it may provide some of the necessary datas that it can save the time and workload of the fighter's pilot and radar...........). If it can, why don't the air-forces of western countries put some BVRAAMs with very long range directly on it ????
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Although the pilot is an extremely important factor for the victory of air-combat, I don't think it's a suitable factor to be discussed in this column, whose title (Eurofighter vs F-16/F-15) should be focused on the capability of the three fighters.
Even you want to discuss the factor of pilot, will the training, quality, and skill of the pilots of RAF and GAF be significantly inferior to the pilots of the great USAF????
As for proven combat track record............Yes, EF-2000 still lacks it, and so does F/A-22. Does that also mean the F-15 & F-16 are superior to F/A-22????
Even you want to discuss the factor of pilot, will the training, quality, and skill of the pilots of RAF and GAF be significantly inferior to the pilots of the great USAF????
As for proven combat track record............Yes, EF-2000 still lacks it, and so does F/A-22. Does that also mean the F-15 & F-16 are superior to F/A-22????
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toan wrote:The MIDS and AWACS are also the complements that EF-2000 has, if an AWACS of F-16 side can detect a typhoon from a far range, then the AWACS of EF-2000 side will still detect the F-16 from the much further range.
By the way, I don't think the AWACS today can provide every data that is necessary for firing the AMRAAM without the help of fighter's radar (although it may provide some of the necessary datas that it can save the time and workload of the fighter's pilot and radar...........). If it can, why don't the air-forces of western countries put some BVRAAMs with very long range directly on it ????
You're right. However, if both aircraft have AWACS and GCI control help, none will be able to surprise the other thanks to its lower RCS.
Also, the AMRAAM has a radar, doesn't it? So why couldn't it be launched on information coming from an AWACS and search for the target itself.
And concerning the APG-80, we don't know really the capabilities of AESA radars. Maybe they have the ability to direct all their power in a particular direction, which would increase the range tremendously. This could be feasable if you have an idea of where the enemy aircraft is thanks to off-board sensors.
This being said, it's clear that the typhoon is superior to the F-16C and F-15. For the F-16E, it's not so obvious, we don't have access to the real performances of the systems of these aircraft as well as the real RCS of the typhoon.
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toan wrote:You can get the formula at this site:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/ ... G/PGSA.htm
This site also provides the datas of detective range of many mordern AWACS/fighters' radar and frontal RCS of many fighters in the world. However, according to the military information I know, these datas may not be 100% accurate..........
thank you greatly, really, thank you, i've always been interested in this stuff, now my calculations can be more accurate
you have been of great help
just a question, you guys keep referring to a Viper, what model F-16 is that(i assume it's an F-16 model)
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1. VIPER is the nickname for F-16 in USAF, just as Rhino for F/A-18E/F in USN.
2. The 18 F-15C with AN/APG-63V2 AESA in Alaska, according to the informations from AW&ST and AFM, may have the better detective range than the Capator radar of EF-2000 today theoretically:
The maximal effective tracking range for RCS = 1 m2 target:
AN/APG-63V2: 144 km (The estimation of AW&ST in 2000/02/07. The declaration from USAF is that the effective detective range of AN/APG-63V2 is 105~110 miles, or about 170 ~ 185 km).
Captor: 108 ~ 125 km
However, if you consider the head-to-head engagement in air-combat, the minimal frontal RCS of F-15C is 10 m2+ class, while the minimal frontal RCS of EF-2000 is around 0.05~0.25 m2 class.
Therefore, according to the formula:
1. The maximal effective tracking range of Captor to F-15C should be 190~220 km theoretically.
2. The maximal effective tracking range of AN/APG-63V2 to EF-2000 should be 68~102 km theoretically.
If both of the fighters use the AIM-120 (Maximal effective range: 40~60 km), I admit that F-15C still have the chance to fight with EF-2000 since both of them should be able to find and track each other before entering the effective range of AIM-120; but if EF-2000 uses Meteor (Maximal effective range 150~200 km with the capability to engage and destroy the target with 9G maneuver 90~100 km away) after 2010~2012......
Anyway, Boeing has joined the plan of Meteor AAM since 2002 and is responsible for integrating Meteor AAM to the F-15C/E and F/A-18E/F if the customer wants...........
2. The 18 F-15C with AN/APG-63V2 AESA in Alaska, according to the informations from AW&ST and AFM, may have the better detective range than the Capator radar of EF-2000 today theoretically:
The maximal effective tracking range for RCS = 1 m2 target:
AN/APG-63V2: 144 km (The estimation of AW&ST in 2000/02/07. The declaration from USAF is that the effective detective range of AN/APG-63V2 is 105~110 miles, or about 170 ~ 185 km).
Captor: 108 ~ 125 km
However, if you consider the head-to-head engagement in air-combat, the minimal frontal RCS of F-15C is 10 m2+ class, while the minimal frontal RCS of EF-2000 is around 0.05~0.25 m2 class.
Therefore, according to the formula:
1. The maximal effective tracking range of Captor to F-15C should be 190~220 km theoretically.
2. The maximal effective tracking range of AN/APG-63V2 to EF-2000 should be 68~102 km theoretically.
If both of the fighters use the AIM-120 (Maximal effective range: 40~60 km), I admit that F-15C still have the chance to fight with EF-2000 since both of them should be able to find and track each other before entering the effective range of AIM-120; but if EF-2000 uses Meteor (Maximal effective range 150~200 km with the capability to engage and destroy the target with 9G maneuver 90~100 km away) after 2010~2012......
Anyway, Boeing has joined the plan of Meteor AAM since 2002 and is responsible for integrating Meteor AAM to the F-15C/E and F/A-18E/F if the customer wants...........
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The minimal frontal RCS of the traditional fighters:
F-15, Su-27: 10~15m2
Tornado: 8 m2
MIG-29: 5 m2
F-18, MIG-21: 3 m2
F-16, M2000: 1~2 m2
Accroding to the declarations of the manufacturers of the NG fighter in the world, the minimal frontal RCS of NG fighters are:
F/A-22:
The declaration of "Marble Size" (about 0.0002~0.0005 m2) in 1999~2000. The newest estimation now is the RCS of "Fly size"
F-35:
The declaration of "Golf ball size" (about 0.0015 m2) by LM in 2000.
EF-2000:
My personal estimation is 0.05~0.1 m2, which is based on the declarations of BAES:
1. "The Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles." (2001).
2. "The RCS of EF-2000 is about 1/3 of the RCS of Rafale" (1998).
MIG-44:
"0.1 m2 class, which is about 1/10 of the RCS of MIG-29SMT", the declaration of Mikoyan in 1999~2000.
F/A-18E/F:
"0.1 m2 class", the declaration of USN in 1999~2000.
Rafale:
"1/10 of the frontal RCS of MIRAGE-2000" (about 0.1~0.2 m2), declared by Dassault in 1999.
Su-47:
"0.3 m2 class", declared by Sukhoi in 2002.
JAS-39:
"1/5 of the frontal RCS of F/A-18 C/D, 1/3 of the frontal RCS of F-16 C/D block40/42, and 1/2 of the frontal RCS of the MIRAGE-2000" (about 0.5 m2).
Theoretically, if a radar can detect F-15C (RCS=10 m2) at the range of 1.000 (about 250 km for the radar of Su-35/37), then its detective range to other fighters shoul be:
Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 0.946 (about 235 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 0.840 (about 210 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 0.740 (about 185 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 0.589 (about 148 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 0.473 (about 118 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 0.416 (about 104 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 0.316~0.376 (about 80~95 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 0.316 (about 80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 0.316 (about 80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 0.266~0.316 (about 65~80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 0.111 (about 28 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 0.067~0.084 (about 16~21 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-15, Su-27: 10~15m2
Tornado: 8 m2
MIG-29: 5 m2
F-18, MIG-21: 3 m2
F-16, M2000: 1~2 m2
Accroding to the declarations of the manufacturers of the NG fighter in the world, the minimal frontal RCS of NG fighters are:
F/A-22:
The declaration of "Marble Size" (about 0.0002~0.0005 m2) in 1999~2000. The newest estimation now is the RCS of "Fly size"
F-35:
The declaration of "Golf ball size" (about 0.0015 m2) by LM in 2000.
EF-2000:
My personal estimation is 0.05~0.1 m2, which is based on the declarations of BAES:
1. "The Typhoon's RCS is bettered only by the F-22 in the frontal hemisphere and betters the F-22 at some angles." (2001).
2. "The RCS of EF-2000 is about 1/3 of the RCS of Rafale" (1998).
MIG-44:
"0.1 m2 class, which is about 1/10 of the RCS of MIG-29SMT", the declaration of Mikoyan in 1999~2000.
F/A-18E/F:
"0.1 m2 class", the declaration of USN in 1999~2000.
Rafale:
"1/10 of the frontal RCS of MIRAGE-2000" (about 0.1~0.2 m2), declared by Dassault in 1999.
Su-47:
"0.3 m2 class", declared by Sukhoi in 2002.
JAS-39:
"1/5 of the frontal RCS of F/A-18 C/D, 1/3 of the frontal RCS of F-16 C/D block40/42, and 1/2 of the frontal RCS of the MIRAGE-2000" (about 0.5 m2).
Theoretically, if a radar can detect F-15C (RCS=10 m2) at the range of 1.000 (about 250 km for the radar of Su-35/37), then its detective range to other fighters shoul be:
Tornado (RCS = 8 m2): 0.946 (about 235 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
MIG-29 (RCS = 5 m2): 0.840 (about 210 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F/A-18C (RCS = 3 m2): 0.740 (about 185 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 0.589 (about 148 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 0.473 (about 118 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
Su-47 (RCS = 0.3 m2): 0.416 (about 104 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 0.316~0.376 (about 80~95 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-18E (RCS = 0.1 m2): 0.316 (about 80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
MIG-42 (RCS = 0.1 m2): 0.316 (about 80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 0.266~0.316 (about 65~80 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F-35A (RCS = 0.0015 m2): 0.111 (about 28 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
F/A-22 (RCS < or = 0.0002~0.0005 m2): < or = 0.067~0.084 (about 16~21 km for the radar of Su-35/37)
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F-15Cs and F-16Cs don't have much chance.. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible to have them carry an external jammer like an ALQ-131 to give them more chance to get closer..
I guess it's possible that an AESA equipped F-15 of F-16 with powerful jammers might fare well.
I guess it's possible that an AESA equipped F-15 of F-16 with powerful jammers might fare well.
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If you want to talk about EW, EF-2000's integrated EW system (DASS) today is almost second to none with the only possible exception of F/A-22's EW system:
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/E ... ences.html
Some military information even declared that EF-2000's EW system has the capability to interfere and block the datalink between the fighter and its missile of enemy.
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/E ... ences.html
Some military information even declared that EF-2000's EW system has the capability to interfere and block the datalink between the fighter and its missile of enemy.
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