F-16E vs. F-15 Golden Eagle

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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ryokenmk

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 00:50

I don't mean in a dogfight, or purely at BVR, I mean, lets say two neighboring countries buy 150 of one or the other and duke it out. Who has the advantage in an air war?
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 02:30

i like F-16E alot more but to be fair F-15 golden will probably take this
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slapshot!

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 04:08

BVR, the F15C-GE will win. The APG-63v3 is one of the best AESAs in the world.

Not to say the F16E is a slouch or that the APG-80 is no good. Just saying the F15 would get contact first.
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wrightwing

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 04:30

The F-15 would have significant BVR advantages, and in WVR the Block 60 F-16 isn't quite as agile as the earlier variants due to the added weight, so the F-15 would do very well there, too.
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 04:52

The first questions to ask are: What exactly do you describe as an F-16E??? And what exactly do you describe as a so-called Golden Eagle?

Are you talking an existing build UAE block 60? Or something else, perhaps even more modernized and more capable, e.g., an upgraded block 50 with a dedicated large aperture IRST-pod, a latest-mod (perhaps Israeli make) self-protection jammer and an improved MAWS??

And as for the 'Golden Eagle'... It's dead on arrival as for upgrades to existing USAF F-15C go (no budget for it, given the current stay the course TACAIR recap plans). But to be fair, in the hypothetical example above, there are no 'new-build' F-15C/D platforms today which could be sold to country X,Y,Z as a next-gen 'Golden Eagle' in the first place. That said, perhaps an actual 'golden Eagle' could be represented by a baseline F-15SA; but with APG-82 (superior than V3), plus off the shelf MAWS, plus latest jammer, among other updates.

Regardless... the answer to the question as to which force structure would come out on top (150 vs 150), would depend on the quality of the pilots, the actual readiness and reliability of the aircraft and arguably most of all... the exact mix of next-gen A2A munition variants and NUMBERS of said munitions (quantities) which would be armed on the two types of aircraft.

Remember, it the actual improved pK of the mix of munitions and the effective ranges of the various munitions too, which will tally the kill in the end - going forward.
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geogen

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 04:57

wrightwing wrote:The F-15 would have significant BVR advantages, and in WVR the Block 60 F-16 isn't quite as agile as the earlier variants due to the added weight, so the F-15 would do very well there, too.


Sorry ww, and with all due respect... but I seriously doubt that you have any info or knowledge as to how agile or performance-based a semi-clean single-seat Block 60 would be, in comparison to a similarly loaded existing block 50.

That said... what about the so-called upgraded F-16E jet being equipped with latest self-protection jamming equipment, along with latest towed-decoys...

Would those have any influence at all on the incoming BVR radar homing shots? Taking the battle into a near-BVR and then BVR contest?
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 08:59

I have personally spoken with a USAF Lt Col IP who said he has flow nearly every F16 configuration throughout his career,including significant time in the 60, and his opinion was that it is a great aircraft, but does suffer quite a bit from the additional weight.
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 14:44

As the ability to generate lift was never changed from Blk1 to Blk60 (same wing design and size) I see no reason not to say that any heavier version of the Viper suffers some penalty in WVR. The STR penalty can be recovered with enough thrust, but the ITR penalty cannot be recovered. The CFT on the Advanced Super Hornet concept seem designed to add lift (shaped as a think airfoil coming up from the LERX) while the CFT for the Viper do not (come out sideways from the body).
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slapshot!

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 15:35

geogen wrote:And what exactly do you describe as a so-called Golden Eagle?


APG-63v3 & EPAWS, along with other upgrades and maybe a SLEP.

geogen wrote:And as for the 'Golden Eagle'... It's dead on arrival as for upgrades to existing USAF F-15C go (no budget for it, given the current stay the course TACAIR recap plans).


Upgrades are already going on.
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 15:53

JetTest wrote:I have personally spoken with a USAF Lt Col IP who said he has flow nearly every F16 configuration throughout his career,including significant time in the 60, and his opinion was that it is a great aircraft, but does suffer quite a bit from the additional weight.



It'd be interesting to hear his take on the F-16XL. From the info available it should have been much better than the base F-16 in many regards. Put a 36k -132 in it though.
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 18:05

slapshot! wrote:BVR, the F15C-GE will win. The APG-63v3 is one of the best AESAs in the world.

Not to say the F16E is a slouch or that the APG-80 is no good. Just saying the F15 would get contact first.




Don't know how clear cut that would be - the F-16 always had a smaller RCS offsetting this somewhat. Regarding practical AA speed and altitude there likely isn't much in it again.

The F-15GE has 2 extra missiles - not to be sniffed at.

Does the F-15GE have a similar level of Sensor Fusion to the F-16E?

If I bought F-16Es would I get an upgrade to the F-35A after a while? 8)
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 18:19

F-15GE have bigger radar ( more range) , bigger jammer ( more jamming power,) , F-16E have smaller RCS (reduce radar range and improve jammer effectiveness) , i think they both gonna detect each other further than their effective missile range, And If i remember correctly they have around similar acceleration too,
F-15 carry 2 more missiles and fly a bit higher
hmmm, to think about it, F-15GE vs F-16E in BVR probably results in a draw

in WVR : f-16 is more agile but both carry HOBS missiles anyway, so probably not that much difference either
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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 19:22

slapshot! wrote:
geogen wrote:And what exactly do you describe as a so-called Golden Eagle?


APG-63v3 & EPAWS, along with other upgrades and maybe a SLEP.

geogen wrote:And as for the 'Golden Eagle'... It's dead on arrival as for upgrades to existing USAF F-15C go (no budget for it, given the current stay the course TACAIR recap plans).


Upgrades are already going on.


Not sure if F-15 C/D are receiving full EPAWSS upgrade. Public release?

But the original so-called F-15C/D 'Golden Eagle' was envisioned to integrate a dedicated IRST as well, along with, I believe, some form of 'Support Jamming' capability. Capable of supporting F-22, etc...

If anything, the EA PUP pod is a self-protection upgrade that would be welcome on both F-16s and F-15E upgrade tracks.

So I guess, my intent of the questioning was to better describe and outline this hypothetical comparison as to how exactly each aircraft would be configured, etc. And precisely how they would be armed, etc.. And in that case, an upgraded F-16 block 50 with AESA and IRST and properly armed with superior next-gen AAM munitions might in fact come out as victor though in an hypothetical 'BVR' DACT mission vs a 'Golden Eagle-lite' F-15C upgraded merely with V3, mission computer upgrade and a possible passive IR threat warner, etc.

That said... it would quite arguably be a prudent and strategic decision by USAF Tacair deciders to invest in maximal systems upgrades for Block 50 at least, ASAP -- as a means to maintain a credible and competitive front-line force structure, near-term.

A new-build F-15SA+ (e.g., w/APG-82, EPAWSS, IRST, tactical EFT and possible support jammer (foreign design perhaps)) wouldn't be too shabby either as a credibility stopgap during the force structure hollowing-out faze. Just my views!
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slapshot!

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Unread post25 Aug 2015, 19:51

geogen wrote:
slapshot! wrote:
geogen wrote:And what exactly do you describe as a so-called Golden Eagle?


APG-63v3 & EPAWS, along with other upgrades and maybe a SLEP.

geogen wrote:And as for the 'Golden Eagle'... It's dead on arrival as for upgrades to existing USAF F-15C go (no budget for it, given the current stay the course TACAIR recap plans).


Upgrades are already going on.


Not sure if F-15 C/D are receiving full EPAWSS upgrade. Public release?

But the original so-called F-15C/D 'Golden Eagle' was envisioned to integrate a dedicated IRST as well, along with, I believe, some form of 'Support Jamming' capability. Capable of supporting F-22, etc...

If anything, the EA PUP pod is a self-protection upgrade that would be welcome on both F-16s and F-15E upgrade tracks.

So I guess, my intent of the questioning was to better describe and outline this hypothetical comparison as to how exactly each aircraft would be configured, etc. And precisely how they would be armed, etc.. And in that case, an upgraded F-16 block 50 with AESA and IRST and properly armed with superior next-gen AAM munitions might in fact come out as victor though in an hypothetical 'BVR' DACT mission vs a 'Golden Eagle-lite' F-15C upgraded merely with V3, mission computer upgrade and a possible passive IR threat warner, etc.

That said... it would quite arguably be a prudent and strategic decision by USAF Tacair deciders to invest in maximal systems upgrades for Block 50 at least, ASAP -- as a means to maintain a credible and competitive front-line force structure, near-term.

A new-build F-15SA+ (e.g., w/APG-82, EPAWSS, IRST, tactical EFT and possible support jammer (foreign design perhaps)) wouldn't be too shabby either as a credibility stopgap during the force structure hollowing-out faze. Just my views!


I don't disagree with the Block 50's, and maybe even a few Block 40's getting upgrades like a SLEP and the SABR radar. Those aircraft would still be assigned to their specific missions of SEAD & Strike.

The USAF F15Es are getting the APG-82, EPAWS, and already have an IRST in the form of the Sniper XR pod.
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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 17:59

slapshot! wrote:The USAF F15Es are getting the APG-82, EPAWS, and already have an IRST in the form of the Sniper XR pod.


Wasn't aware Sniper had that capability - thought that's why Legion and OpenPod were being developed.
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