Viper and Tomcat showdown

e6bill · by **e6bill** » 06 Jun 2005, 05:42

The F-14D's were a mix of reman'd A's and new builds. Nearly all of the B's (A+) were reman'd birds, as far as I've seen. May be off a little...

Viperalltheway · by **Viperalltheway** » 06 Jun 2005, 14:30

Here's more explanation on that:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... riants.htm

Maybe the new build Ds have AMRAAM capability and not the upgraded ones..

kilo111 · by **kilo111** » 06 Jun 2005, 16:06

I think F-14D can carry AIM-120 AMRAAM misiles too. This plane has been use since 1990, when the Amraam began to replace the Sparrow.

agilefalcon16 · by **agilefalcon16** » 06 Jun 2005, 17:44

The F-14D could have been modified to carry the AIM-120, but the Navy decided that it would have been too expensive to modify the Tomcat to have this capability, so they abanded the program. Please check the link that I posted on Page 1 of this topic for more info.

parrothead · by **parrothead** » 06 Jun 2005, 17:59

Negative kilo111, no fleet Tomcats could carry the AMRAAM, just a few test birds :wink:

.

MikeMan · by **MikeMan** » 30 Jun 2005, 07:53

Yeah the F-14D is not capable of firing the AIM-120.

It is a real shame that the Tomcat 21 program did not go ahead.

dred · by **dred** » 30 Jun 2005, 16:29

Agreed, Tomcat 21 would have been very useful now. In hindsight, lots of bungling by the Navy over the last 15 years with regard to aircraft acquisition.

2sBlind · by **2sBlind** » 12 Jul 2005, 18:10

The Navy bungle aircraft acquisition?? Nooooo!! Never! :doh:

grss1982 · by **grss1982** » 14 Jul 2005, 02:39

Just could'nt help myself.

dionis · by **dionis** » 22 Aug 2005, 20:43

Well since the F-14 is phased out, no matter anyway..

But with the Phoenix and the massive radar, I think the F-14 would have beaten the F-15/F-16/F-18s IN BVR, but lost to all in WVR.

It's really that size of the plane/radar that wins the BVR for it, but it's not too manuevarable compared to the other planes.

agilefalcon16 · by **agilefalcon16** » 22 Aug 2005, 20:48

dionis wrote:Well since the F-14 is phased out, no matter anyway..

But there are still some in service right now though, right?

2sBlind · by **2sBlind** » 23 Aug 2005, 05:20

But with the Phoenix and the massive radar, I think the F-14 would have beaten the F-15/F-16/F-18s IN BVR, but lost to all in WVR.

This is true, if you can identify your target outside of AMRAAM range, which of course depends on having an AWACS or an on-board declaration capability. So, it's the standard answer: it depends. And even Phoenix missiles can be defeated like any doppler radar missile with a notch maneuver. The complexities of modern BVR combat almost preclude the ability to say that one platform will win over another if they are even close in capabilities.

parrothead · by **parrothead** » 23 Aug 2005, 06:36

agilefalcon16.

Yes, there are still a few Tomcats in service at the moment

! Not for long, but they're still flying. I miss seeing those jets on my way to work in San Diego.

2sBlind,

I have to agree. I've heard some stories from a trusted source about a Zipper getting the best of a Tomcat in WVR...

The Viper has the edge in some ways, the Turkey in others - only time and the pilots will tell :wink:

!

allenperos · by **allenperos** » 23 Aug 2005, 07:11

These forums regarding issues of "X vs Z" is still a matter of energy conservation if ever in an ACM engagement. Those days are gone, forever. In fact they left a long time ago, these is no reason why any aircraft should execute more than 6 positive "G's" in any manuever unless it is a sloppy one.

Someone mentioned the F-14, I think it was Sniper, about pulling 8 "G's" I doubt it, seriously. If ever in an up-close engagement with "X vs Z" the PILOT who conserves the most energy will win. The fight will be quick and to the point with no doubt in between. We're really thinking up pipe dreams with these forums discussing trun radius, UAV's and Aerospace Vehicles pulling 20 "G's", ok maybe we are, then we're talking taking men out of the loop also, huh, See "The Future of Military Aerospace Vehicles".

2sBlind · by **2sBlind** » 23 Aug 2005, 09:20

Having said earlier that it is impossible to determine who is going to win based solely on the airframe, among many other factors it is going to come down to the pilots. It's going to be who knows how to defeat what firing parameters the other guy needs (a WEZ) and who is going to be able to defeat any ordnance that is sent their way. If you want to discuss who would have an advantage over the other guy.... that's a different story.

Continuing long-winded and :offtopic:

allenperos, I have to disagree with you about the state of current WVR combat. Modern WVR combat is not always about preserving energy - it's about sound tactics utilizing a formation of airplanes and the teamwork that is necessary between them to win - that's the biggest factor. New technology has not made a 9G turn obsolete, nor will it make an aircraft that can pull 20Gs worthless.

As far as whether or not we'll see a dogfight again: You never know when the ROE might not allow BVR missile shots and when a merge is the only way to figure out if somebody needs to be killed. IF (and I admit it seems like a big IF - but they said the same thing in the 1960's...) that ever happens, the better pilot is going to win the engagement - it sure helps to have all of the BFM toys that the new jets have now, but a 9G break turn is a 9G break turn, and it's not easy for a missile or another jet to hack that - again it's all about defeating the shot opportunity and the shot if necessary.

To continue, every single missile out there has a way to defeat it - if you can't deny the shot to begin with. It is becoming harder and harder to stay out of an enemy's WEZ, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible, or that it is impossible to defeat a missile he happens to get off the rail. Maneuverability still plays a huge role in defeating those WEZ's and shots.

Energy conservation is also going the wayside because of the T-W ratios that are coming out now. When a Blk 50/52 Viper can accelerate in a 7-8G limiter-pull turn to a 9G one, saving energy isn't necessarily the primary concern anymore, it's getting out of the enemy's WEZ or defeating his shot - admittedly, you have to be in a position where lighting the blower isn't going to get you an Archer up the tailpipe, but a 9G break even in idle will quickly put an enemy out of a WEZ and once they are out that WEZ, light the blower and keep cranking at 9G - soon he'll be in your WEZ if he can't pull and sustain 9Gs.

The length and survivability (no stalemate or separation) of a WVR fight has gone down dramatically with the proliferation of off-boresight missiles (Archer, AIM-9X, Python IV, ASRAAM), but those missiles still have to be within certain parameters to fire (in a WEZ), and there's no reason why you can't stay out of those parameters with better tactics and execution - meaning this has been a really long way to say that it all comes down to the pilot and tactics. Ok, I'm done I swear... :whistle: