F-16 versus Mirage 2000

[Corous]

Not quite exact. The M 2000 can carry max. 4 MICA (usually RF version) under the fuselage, 2 Magic II or MICA IR on the outer wing pylons ant 3 fuel tanks (inboards and centerline).

I IDed the missile in this picture as MICAs but I could be wrong...

[RoAF]

That's the Super 530. For Mica see this: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0362563/L/
Mica has the same shape as the Super 530, but it's much thinner.

[velos35]

In numbers the two fighters seem to be equal.The mirage has a slight advantage in instanteneous turn rate,slighlty smaller turn radius,corner velocity and a better nose authority at low airspeeds.If the fight stays high altitude/slow the M2k has the advantage.M2k pilots seek for one circle fight to take advantage of theis small radius in a high aspect encounter to get a quick shot.The viper has a much better radar, better acceleration,sustained turn rate,better rate of climb and at low altitude it is very hard to deal with (the aircraft seems to be out of control due to AB thrust power).The magic missile is superior to the Aim-9l/m.In a high aspect fight the viper must maintain the airspeed high (300knots) and search for the two circle fight.In BVR the F16 is suprior n many ways (radar,Aim-120,rate of climb/acceleration)

[tod]

this is a mirage 2000 vs F16 video from the HAF.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/en52/1456/

enjoy!

[tod]

in the bvr arena i must disagree with you velos. the result of the first encounter between f16 and the dash five was stunning. 40 victories for only one loss for the m2k-5 with mica.

this a pdf relating about this event. it is quite clear about the rdy and mica combination superiority.

[velos35]

Not doubt about that Tod.Thanks fot the pdf (i wish i could read it!!,my french are not so good).I was talking for the M-2k with semi active missiles M-2000E not the -5 which is much better,thanks!

[Cad]

the mica is a good missile but it`s not realy~ fire and forget~ because just like AMRAAM u are firing against a position in wich the computer predicts that a fighter would be by the time the seeker goes active ( infrared or active radar ). if the target pulls a tight turn before the seeker goes active the missile would have a hard time finding the target...
without datalink between the missiles and the firing aircraft long range shots are risky.

You are left with 2 choices :
1. keep tracking the targes(all four..) just like THE sparrow for the IR verSION OF MICA
2. launch the missiles in seeker range.(very dangerous task since by now the target has allredy fired)

There are some advantages also:
1. the target does not know that a missiles is incoming until very late.
2. if the target has fired a missile against you the sound of mica going active on his radar warrning sistem would make him defensive and lose the lock he has on your aircraft.( very efective against SPARROW: and Amraam during the AIM-120 inertial flight )
3. a Mica with infrared seeker fired behind a target would not trigger his RWS so if the pilot does not see the missile, his dead.

That pdf sounds more like popular science to me ...

[Orkun]

These are Mirages:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DykVRKOk2BY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyqq7lMyTnI

... as usually locked by F-16s over the Aegean sea

[Pilotasso]

Thats a curious article. It mentions how the MICA is superior to the super 530 because one mirage can shoot 6 target but they forget that one F-16 MLU (the article mentions other types with no BVR capability as well) has 6 on 6 AMRAAM capability as well. And the AMRAAM has more range than the MICA.

What I do believe is that the french pilots were better trained/smarter at BVR tactics. Exercises usualy are scripted and have different ROEs than real combat. All F-16 debriefs and accounts I had ever whitnessed were about WVR BFM missions with Mig-21/23 and 29's in mind. I keep telling every time I have a chance to speak with anyone in the AF that one has BVR today, and BVR lets you get a better chance of having the uper hand by the time of the merge (tacticaly speaking, not just by inflicted casualties) and today you should expect Mig-35's and Su-30's as oponents and not some Mig-21 with heaters.

F-16 operators in europe to my judgement are training with early 90's dogfighting doctrines in mind.

[Cad]

How you didn't see Mirage funnel?

I'm sorry my English is bad.

During the first clip the Turkish pilot it`s trying to get the mirage in the gun-sight (funnel).

The distance between the funnel lines is aprox 15 m so a closer target should stay in the upper part of the funnel and a distant target in the lower part of the funnel.

The mirage was in the HUD but not in the funnel (upper or lower)
at the and of the clip the mirage is passing trough the funnel but only for 0.2sec or so ( not enough for a secure shoot)

Maybe you can translate the second clip cause it`s in Turkish and I did not understand it....

[art8492]

orkun,

No greek mirage 2000 was shot down by an F-16. it was an older mirage F1.

Conversely a Turkish F-16 piloted by an israeli pilot was shot down by a mirage 2000.

A nice video where many turkish F-16s are locked by Greek Mirage 2000 (this one is much more obvious): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpmwjdcGCG0

There is a greek mirage 2000 pilot called duplex who wrote on this thread page 4. this is what he wrote when responding to someone. Basically M2k is a better dogfigther and superority aircraft but inferior multirole aircraft.

Would you agree with these statements of a former HAF fighter pilot?

<<To conclude, the Mirage 2000 is slicker than the Viper but less powerful. >>

This true.

>>With good pilots on both sides, they are probably equal in dogfight>>

This is wrong. A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).

I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.

The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).

A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.

As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.
Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?

Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles - whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.

HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331's (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332's primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.

The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system

[Cad]

I guess any pilot would say that his jet is best but as for the multi-role issue: block 30 and 40 Falcons did not use AFM-84 Harpoon missiles.

[art8492]

I am sure there are some great turkish pilots like in every airforces, but your comments prove that you lack some maturity. I suspect that you are still young, but try to discuss in a constructive way. there is no need to be agressive.

Saying that turkish's (or any other countries') pilots are the best in the world is nonsens. Perhaps they scored well in red flag once or two, but every country have there own share of good scores in international exercises. It just prove that turkish pilots are well trained, but not "the best".

a greek will tell that they own turkish and the turkish the other story. Stupid.
I noticed on many board that turkish can be very nationalistic...Maybe because this is a proud people?

I stick to duplex point of view which is very balanced, and very good when you know that greek air force operate both types of aircraft.

About the mirage who crashed into the agean it was a mirage f1. (I read an article about this event). An f16 was shot down by a mirage 2000. (perhaps you can remind me the year of the two events, I don't remember it??)

ps: I am not greek

[Pilotasso]

This cold war between greece and turkey is a disgrace. Everytime I see these kind of comments makes me wish they could see how silly this is. Even more when both countries were better off spending all those billions in their development rather than for oversized airforces.

[Cad]

This cold war between Greece and turkey is a disgrace. Everytime I see these kind of comments makes me wish they could see how silly this is. Even more when both countries were better off spending all those billions in their development rather than for over-sized airforces.

When you say oversize you should consider that during cold war turkey should defend against URSS, SIRIA, IRAK, IRAN, NOT MENTIONING GREECE AT ALL.

As for greece, bulgaria might have been a treath during the 80 but most of her airbases are located close to the Aegeen.