F-16 vs SU-30

[Lieven]

The AIM-9X Sidewinder info on the Raytheon website is located at:
http://www.raytheon.com/products/aim9_x/

The AIM-9X video is at:
http://www.raytheon.com/products/aim9_x ... v2885a.wmv

[elp]

Something I want to mention is not to confuse my rant with lack of appreciation for a certain type of aircraft. The big SU's are certainly fascinating aircraft. I would say also that it's size allows for a lot of growth room and inovation. New aftermarket gadgets should be easy to add to it. There is already a centerline conformal tank for it and some other interesting things.

If it was me, I would buy a stock SU single seater and have someone like the Israelis mod the heck out of it. Most of the avionics, (MFDs, wide angle HUD, ECM, LITENING Pod, NVG compatible stuff including NVG compatable running lights), Of course Israeli A2A missiles, and assuming a full digital- INS/GPS for all weather bombing I would have it so it could take JDAM, SPICE and Enhanced Paveway. Maybe a high-g compatible cupholder too.

[elp]

Not to mention that in a real fight you would also (normally) have air controllers who would try to guide to the best position to start a fight.

I agree. Although sometimes I wonder The public consumption debrief by the F-15 pilots in the twin MiG29 shootdown in Allied Force '99 doesn't leave you with the impression that they were a satisfied AWACs customer that day.

And in this case the MiG-29s GCI didn't do such a hot job and didn't do much but setup the MiG-29s to be AMRAAM bait. People mention this war as if the Serbs were outnumbered and of course they were. But here it was bad GCI help vs. bad AWACs help that setup an almost fair fight (had the Mig29s radars not been down because of maintenance).

[parrothead]

BVR - AWACS - AMRAAM - BOOM!!! HARM, B-1, B-2, F-117, B-52, TOMAHAWK, JDAM = GCI go BOOM!!! US gets first look, first shot, first kill!!! WVR - F-16 small, SU-30 big.

[elp]

Yup.... just all depends... Here are some BVR thoughts.

Advantage SU

-Basic SU-30K vs a no BVR F-16 like PAF
-SU-30MKI ( or any SU with R77 ( AA-12 )) vs any F-16 (for BVR shootin) ( assuming the R77 ( which isnt proven in combat... ) works.

Also consider big SU has lots of gas to preposition ( assuming the SU force has S.I. ( Situational awareness ) like a good AWACs, or GCI that hasn't been beaten down ) and it has the ability for contempt of engagement if it is on a strike mission. Hard to chase down with an F-16.

Advantage F-16

-AMRAAM F-16 vs a SU-30K ( or any SU that is R-27 ( AA-10 Alamo ) SARH capable only and no R77 (AA-12).


------ correction... Indian SU-30K ( first batch ) has been shown with bomb racks sometimes ( dumb weps only? ) ELP ( photo: SU-30K SB-007 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... Su-30k.jpg )

CANARD ALERT ! photo: SU-30MKI showing its canards and note the downward pitch of the engines thrust vector nozzles... http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... Su-30s.jpg

[CheckSix]

Elp, are you absolutely sure, Su-30 has not started an R-27ER/EM Missle before F-16 detects it?
F-16 radar is small, detection range does not exeed 70km level and 60km Lock down. (5m² RCS target, APG-68(V)5)
You may now that RCS is not a matter of size. Normally fighters have an RCS from 5-3m². Newly painted MiG-29 have only 1m². I would not argue about RCS, because there are no solid facts available (angle, inclination...)

In terms of maneurvebility they are pretty even: F-16 instanteous turnrate is 26, sustained only 18°sec sustained.

Su-27, which is less maneuvrable than Su-30 performs 28° instanteos and 22,5° sustained. So the huge bird will outturn the little F-16.

So my conclusion is: The F-16 Block50 is inferiour in any aspect.

[toan]

Elp, are you absolutely sure, Su-30 has not started an R-27ER/EM Missle before F-16 detects it?
F-16 radar is small, detection range does not exeed 70km level and 60km Lock down. (5m² RCS target, APG-68(V)5)
You may now that RCS is not a matter of size. Normally fighters have an RCS from 5-3m². Newly painted MiG-29 have only 1m². I would not argue about RCS, because there are no solid facts available (angle, inclination...)

In terms of maneurvebility they are pretty even: F-16 instanteous turnrate is 26, sustained only 18°sec sustained.

Su-27, which is less maneuvrable than Su-30 performs 28° instanteos and 22,5° sustained. So the huge bird will outturn the little F-16.

So my conclusion is: The F-16 Block50 is inferiour in any aspect.

BVR, Head-to-Head:

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2


Maximum effective detective Range:

AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target



N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
(http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html)


Theoretically,

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.



@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

[CheckSix]

nice calculation.
Are You sure about the RCS of the SU-27/30? (10m²) I haven't seen it ever published, but the EF consortium says, the EF2000 has 1/7th of it, rating 0,1to0,25. An other source gives 3m²....

Ok, there is a lott of speculation... let alone the impact of "sorbtsiya" and ALQ-131.

[toan]

An indirect evidence may from..............

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range..............Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km.


Use the basic formula for the relationship between target's RCS and the detective range, you may roughly estimate the difference of Su-27/30's RCS and F-16's RCS.

[toan]

Aviation Week and Space Technoledge(AW&ST) 1999/02/15

An article about JSF mentioned

The frontal RCS of F-22 is about -30 dB (0.001m2)

The frontal RCS of JSF is slightly larger than F-22 and about the same size as golf ball.

The frontal RCS of F-15 is about 20 dB (11m2)


And the RCS of F-15 and Su-27 should be similar since their size and design are quiet similar.................

[toan]

nice calculation.
Are You sure about the RCS of the SU-27/30? (10m²) I haven't seen it ever published, but the EF consortium says, the EF2000 has 1/7th of it, rating 0,1to0,25. An other source gives 3m²....

Ok, there is a lott of speculation... let alone the impact of "sorbtsiya" and ALQ-131.

According to the information I know

The original Su-27/30's frontal RCS is about the same class as F-15: about 10m2 + class.

However, it is said that Russian has tried to use some LO-/stealth- technologies in Su-35/37, and decreased its frontal RCS to the 1~3m2 class. But as far as I know, these technologies haven't been used to the exporting Su-27/30 right now.

[elp]

Elp, are you absolutely sure, Su-30 has not started an R-27ER/EM Missle before F-16 detects it?
F-16 radar is small, detection range does not exeed 70km level and 60km Lock down. (5m² RCS target, APG-68(V)5)
You may now that RCS is not a matter of size. Normally fighters have an RCS from 5-3m². Newly painted MiG-29 have only 1m². I would not argue about RCS, because there are no solid facts available (angle, inclination...)

In terms of maneurvebility they are pretty even: F-16 instanteous turnrate is 26, sustained only 18°sec sustained.

Su-27, which is less maneuvrable than Su-30 performs 28° instanteos and 22,5° sustained. So the huge bird will outturn the little F-16.

So my conclusion is: The F-16 Block50 is inferiour in any aspect.

BVR, Head-to-Head:

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2


Maximum effective detective Range:

AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target



N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"
(http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html)


Theoretically,

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.



@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

SU-30s are dangerous. However, consider a few more things that I have brought up: Sit in the seat of an F-16. Look back. You can see the burner nozzle. Rear vis on a big su is limited. A two seater not unlike an F-4. The SU is very large. The F-16 isn't. That few seconds or less benefit could make the difference, even if both sides have HOBS heaters. Which brings up another point, Almost any jet is dangerous in WVR, with HOBS/helmet/heaters. Especially the new gen ones. XYZ turn rate of marginal difference, doesn't mean much. One more thing. Limits aside; AMRAAM is proven in more than a few combat shoots. RuTech BVR on the other hand, still has a lousy record of success in combat that it has to get over. R77 might end that bad record. Then again, maybe it won't.

So my conclusion is: The F-16 Block50 is inferiour in any aspect.

Maybe in air to air, but not air to ground and not cost of ownership.

[toan]

In 1998, the BAES declared that the EF-2000's RCS is about 1/7 of Su-27, 1/5 of F/A-18, and 1/3 of Rafale.................

However, in 1999, Dassault declared that the frontal RCS of Rafale is about 1/10 of Mirage-2000-5 (1~3m2).............

If the BAEs' declaration in 1998 is right, the frontal RCS of EF-2000 should be about 1/30 of Mirage-2000: About 0.03~0.1m2 class......

I think that declaration is questionable, and it may mention the average RCS of the whole fighter of EF-2000, Rafale, F/A-18, and Su-27; not the minimal frontal RCS of these fighters.

[CheckSix]

@elp:

About Ru BVR: R-27R have been fired in various occasions in the US. There are photos, where german MiGs fired them at different altitudes.

The results are calssified / unpublished. I can only rely on brief pilot statements: "I've always hit the target" .

It is true, that soviet avionics may be simpler and less sophisticated, but reported to be working even under difficult conditions.

Anyway, there is a lott of speculation on that topic. There are accounts from serb pilots having evaded 4 AMRAAMS or so. It is always difficult to get an independant view.

[elp]

Well range results may be different but the combat between Eritrea and Eitheopia ( with mercs that knew how to work the gear ), the R27 did not kill anything and ended up damaging one jet. It effectively has a worse combat record than the early Sparrow ( bad ). Not to mention, that we can expect that because we have the knowledge, that the R-27, especially the early ones, are a completely compromised system, for the very case you mention.

As for reliability: I expect the Indians and the Chinese to have better reliablity rates, mission up times, logistics support and certainly a more experienced cadre than the Ru AF which is broken in may places.