Viper versus A-4 Scooter
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JR007 wrote:Gums,
There were two Scooters operating out of Cold Lake while we were there. They were from ATSI.
http://www.atsifightertraining.com/
Good group of folks!
Yeah, it's fun watching them take off every morning from across the road. Lots of good guys, several of whom I used to work with at AFRL.
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habu2 wrote:Cockpit photos? I know the general layout but have not seen (or been able to find) any photos of the new AR cockpit.
There is a good article (in spanish) about the A-4AR.
http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/bajolapieldel_a4.html
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Well, the A-4AR Fightinghawk has the APG-66 radar, can carry Sparrow or AMRAAM missiles (but Argentinas doesn´t have any of these) and the AIM-9L/M Sidewinders. F-16 met A-4 in AGUILA 1 and 2 excersises carried on Argentina, and our pilots did a great job, also Mireges IIIEA and Fingers, were used. The argentine pilots obtained 90% of aeriel kills against the Vipers, not so bad, eh?. Cheers from Argentina!
Duc in Altum
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- Location: Jacksonville Fl (Cecil Field)
I flew the A-4 as an Aggressor on contract up in Cold lake Canada. last year. One of the most rememberable sorties was briefed as a two part mission. First a two ship F-18 all out ACM against are two ship, a TA-4J and Hawker Hunter both sporting the ALQ jammers. The late great Tom"Sharkbate"Delashaw Was lead in the Hunter. Sharkbate briefed me to stay High and that he would go low. Flying to the range was a joy. The A-4 in lead Tom in the Hunter on my wing and two F-18's on his. There was a Jamming Lear jet that was with us in lose formation and they had a camera. . We got some Neat PIC's Any way We found are block of sky and the F-18's called Fights on. about 4min in the fight I asked the controller where the F-18's where he said 10 miles north west 5000 ft heading 090. I thought to my self this should get exciting rolled inverted and pulled into a dive from 18000 ft about 550kt at about 10000 ft I saw the Hunter burn by with a F-18 coming up on his Six I guess he didn't see me. till it was to late I called the kill. . Still with a lot of airspeed I pulled up to get to my briefed ALT. full mill power almost vertical and there he was right on my nose about one mile headed down hill I pulled power threw out the board and went in for the kill just before I got in to position he called fights off.
The second mission was with some F-16's for some US ANG I remember sitting there at about 18000 ft looking up into the sky at some small dots leaving long contrails not a good feeling knowing those where the F-16's that are soon coming to try to kill us. This time it was are job to take out the simulated base cut in to the grass in the middle of this huge range with the F-16's to stop us. the F-18's were on are side. The F-18's called fights on. With Tom on are wing with his hand held GPS we put the coals on and dived for the deck. 50 ft following the terrain 550kt Tom gave me vectors and right on target tom calls bomb away. The F-18s did a good job of keeping the F-16 from attacking us because I never did see the F-16's But that was ok with me, they are so intimidating. We joined with the F-18's and did a range sweep back to base. Over all the A-4 got its fare share of kills. We flew three sorties a day for eight weeks supporting the RCAF SQD 441,316 and the other one. My friend my instructor and mentor Sharkbate died in a Hunter crash after his engine failed and seat failed, Tom also flew lead in the F-104 Starfighter airshow team.
Ditch
The second mission was with some F-16's for some US ANG I remember sitting there at about 18000 ft looking up into the sky at some small dots leaving long contrails not a good feeling knowing those where the F-16's that are soon coming to try to kill us. This time it was are job to take out the simulated base cut in to the grass in the middle of this huge range with the F-16's to stop us. the F-18's were on are side. The F-18's called fights on. With Tom on are wing with his hand held GPS we put the coals on and dived for the deck. 50 ft following the terrain 550kt Tom gave me vectors and right on target tom calls bomb away. The F-18s did a good job of keeping the F-16 from attacking us because I never did see the F-16's But that was ok with me, they are so intimidating. We joined with the F-18's and did a range sweep back to base. Over all the A-4 got its fare share of kills. We flew three sorties a day for eight weeks supporting the RCAF SQD 441,316 and the other one. My friend my instructor and mentor Sharkbate died in a Hunter crash after his engine failed and seat failed, Tom also flew lead in the F-104 Starfighter airshow team.
Ditch
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- A-4 on the ramp in Jacksonville florida with RNAF F-16 in back ground
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hi pucara70, 90% aerial kill is a good result. Pardon my ignorance, which F-16 operator was participating? Didn't have much luck in the first pass with Google. Will try again. Meanwhile, will be nice if you have some online reference to Ex AGUILA.
cheers,
cheers,
Desmond
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Well, check out at google or terra or another site like these. In Aguila I the percentage was 70% in the second edition up to 88-90%. The Mirages were used in combination with the A-4AR (APG-66 improved radar), remember that the MirageIII EA and the Fingers have more speed than a falcon, so that combination made the results!. In both cases the operators of the Falcons were National Air Guards, in the second exercise I think that they were from Washington ANG ( I mean DC, not the State ), but I am not sure, I must check the magazines that I have. Greetings!!
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Opps I'm an dumb a-- Thanks JR
Hahaha lol, you know how it is.- Newbie
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Hey guys! Everybody should love the job Lockheed Martin did on the A4-AR, its a great plane!
Check this link: http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/bajolapieldel_a4.html (spanish)
Check this link: http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/bajolapieldel_a4.html (spanish)
- Attachments
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- A4-AR during Cruzex 2004 exercise in Brasil. A4-ARs got a 100% air-to-air combat simulation scores against Brasilian f-5E
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- A4-AR during Cruzex 2004 exercise in Brasil, check the aim9 M/L
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- 3 ARs flying together with one of the T/0A-4AR over californian skies
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- A4-AR fightinghawk´s cockpit
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elp wrote:Photos of A-4s loaded up max with dumb iron look great. Especially ones with the old long mud fuses or what ever they are called. I like the real old school Nam era photos. Never seen a photo of one hanging a nuke ( its original designed mission ).
Cool jet.
Take a look at this link
http://www.skyhawk.org/5E/G142082/html/142095.htm
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A4-AR wrote:Hey guys! Everybody should love the job Lockheed Martin did on the A4-AR, its a great plane!
Check this link: http://www.hangardigital.com.ar/bajolapieldel_a4.html (spanish)
wow. Like that setup. That one MFD looks like a common ASI setup you see in civil aircraft. Nice job.
- ELP -
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asiatrails wrote:elp wrote:Photos of A-4s loaded up max with dumb iron look great. Especially ones with the old long mud fuses or what ever they are called. I like the real old school Nam era photos. Never seen a photo of one hanging a nuke ( its original designed mission ).
Cool jet.
Take a look at this link
http://www.skyhawk.org/5E/G142082/html/142095.htm
Thanks. Nice photo. Don't give any nukes to Gums though. He already said he would only use them with the max yield dialied in.
How he slipped through PRP, I'll never know What a bully. - ELP -
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Mud fuzes...ah, the good ol' "Daisy Cutters!" 
Pi$$es me off though, when those media idiots refer to the BLU-82 as "THE Daisy Cutter." It's just A type of Daisy Cutter. But anything with the fuze extenders can technically be called one.
Anyway, yes the A-4 looked absolutely mean with all of its MERs loaded up with dumb iron...I'm sure one or two Viet Cong out there thought so too!
They look pretty good with the humpback, IMHO. However, I'm glad they removed them for the Blue Angels.
Curiosly, one time speaking with Adms. Tony Less (first A-4 Blue Angel CO) and Denny Wisely (MiG killer, and Blue Angel Skyhawk driver), they said that the Skyhawk was great because of its tight turning radius. They were always able to keep the A-4s in front of the crowd, so there was no lull in the show (they did have a fantastic demo in the Skyhawk, BTW).
Even though it couldn't put the Gs on like the Viper, it can still turn extremely tight. A Viper would be best suited to keep on the speed, and climb out of the A-4's firing envelope. It can turn with a Viper, but it can't climb with one. Unless you're going in with a TOPGUN instructor, I'd have to say Advantage: Viper in this case.
Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
Pi$$es me off though, when those media idiots refer to the BLU-82 as "THE Daisy Cutter." It's just A type of Daisy Cutter. But anything with the fuze extenders can technically be called one.
Anyway, yes the A-4 looked absolutely mean with all of its MERs loaded up with dumb iron...I'm sure one or two Viet Cong out there thought so too!
They look pretty good with the humpback, IMHO. However, I'm glad they removed them for the Blue Angels.
Curiosly, one time speaking with Adms. Tony Less (first A-4 Blue Angel CO) and Denny Wisely (MiG killer, and Blue Angel Skyhawk driver), they said that the Skyhawk was great because of its tight turning radius. They were always able to keep the A-4s in front of the crowd, so there was no lull in the show (they did have a fantastic demo in the Skyhawk, BTW).
Even though it couldn't put the Gs on like the Viper, it can still turn extremely tight. A Viper would be best suited to keep on the speed, and climb out of the A-4's firing envelope. It can turn with a Viper, but it can't climb with one. Unless you're going in with a TOPGUN instructor, I'd have to say Advantage: Viper in this case.
Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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The Sing A-4's with GE404 engines were fun to fight. I agree with previous posters who said the A-4 could give a Viper a hard-time if the Scooter was able to get the Viper slow.
I was that guy. I had 3 engagements: 2 x 9000' defensive perches (Scooter offensive) and 1 high-aspect engagement. After that the Scooter was out of gas.
The 9K offensive sets both worked out the same. The pilot of the Scooter was young and stayed pure pursuit from the fight's-on. So, flares defeat the heater and a quick jink defeats the gun - and in less than 180 degrees of turn the Scooter is defensive. I will say again - this was pilot error and not a reflection on the A-4.
The first set was an immediate Knock it off (KIO) after the reversal of roles so the Scooter driver could get more practice. The second I pressed the attack after he became defensive and got too greedy!
I ended up too close (<3000'), too slow (220-240kts) and nose stuck in lag. The Scooter was basically doing whifferdills (no s--t), but he was able to keep it slow enough to keep my nose off. After about 2 whifferdills I realized that I was never going to get a guns-track - so I lagged off, built some separation and airspeed and was able to get a kill the next time he put his nose up.
I could see the slats deployed on the Scooter, and he was basically holding his own against my clean BK 40 since I put the A/C in a bad part of the F-16 envelope. I consider that engagement a loss, really, since it took way too long to kill the A-4.
On the High-Aspect pass it was over almost before it started. For some reason the Scooter hit the merge very slow (350kts). I don't know if he was low on gas, or knew he wanted to force a single-circle fight - or perhaps just made an error, but either way it cost him.
I went straight up and he didn't have nearly the airspeed to follow and began a level to slightly-descending turn. I took the Viper over the top and entered his turn circle for for a quick track.
My personal assessment is that if you get a Viper below about 250 versus the GE404-Scooter he can hold his own if you stay there. Anything above 250 and the Scooter doesn't have a prayer because it can't gain/sustain energy as well as the F-16.
I was that guy. I had 3 engagements: 2 x 9000' defensive perches (Scooter offensive) and 1 high-aspect engagement. After that the Scooter was out of gas.
The 9K offensive sets both worked out the same. The pilot of the Scooter was young and stayed pure pursuit from the fight's-on. So, flares defeat the heater and a quick jink defeats the gun - and in less than 180 degrees of turn the Scooter is defensive. I will say again - this was pilot error and not a reflection on the A-4.
The first set was an immediate Knock it off (KIO) after the reversal of roles so the Scooter driver could get more practice. The second I pressed the attack after he became defensive and got too greedy!
I ended up too close (<3000'), too slow (220-240kts) and nose stuck in lag. The Scooter was basically doing whifferdills (no s--t), but he was able to keep it slow enough to keep my nose off. After about 2 whifferdills I realized that I was never going to get a guns-track - so I lagged off, built some separation and airspeed and was able to get a kill the next time he put his nose up.
I could see the slats deployed on the Scooter, and he was basically holding his own against my clean BK 40 since I put the A/C in a bad part of the F-16 envelope. I consider that engagement a loss, really, since it took way too long to kill the A-4.
On the High-Aspect pass it was over almost before it started. For some reason the Scooter hit the merge very slow (350kts). I don't know if he was low on gas, or knew he wanted to force a single-circle fight - or perhaps just made an error, but either way it cost him.
I went straight up and he didn't have nearly the airspeed to follow and began a level to slightly-descending turn. I took the Viper over the top and entered his turn circle for for a quick track.
My personal assessment is that if you get a Viper below about 250 versus the GE404-Scooter he can hold his own if you stay there. Anything above 250 and the Scooter doesn't have a prayer because it can't gain/sustain energy as well as the F-16.
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