S-400 and F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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usnimitz

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Unread post15 Dec 2019, 11:50

S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 miles away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 miles away.

Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets. 8)
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madrat

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Unread post15 Dec 2019, 15:07

It can hit high altitude targets at 400 miles. Otherwise it would have to fly ballistic trajectories to reach a low altitude target at that range, and without the high speed/energy state of its normal flight profile. It is probably good for 600 miles if you are just throwing rocks.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post15 Dec 2019, 21:57

4th Gen can get a lot closer than the S-400's max range by using a combination of ESM, standoff munitions, and launching from below the sensor horizon of the S-400.
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juretrn

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Unread post15 Dec 2019, 22:10

Hasn't the S-400 vs F-35 topic been done to death already? Do we really need another thread?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Dec 2019, 22:29

<sarcasm on> YEP. Just like we need another 'dogfight is not dead fred' thread because we like to talk endlessly about it.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 00:00

usnimitz wrote:S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 miles away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 miles away.


Actually the longest range S-400 missile, the 40N6E has a maximum range of 400 kilometers, not miles (there's quite a bit diference between kilometers, land miles and nautical miles).

usnimitz wrote:Stealth is the only sophisticated feature that will save F-35 jets from Russian S-400 missiles. Many countries are buying S-400s when many countries are buying F-35 stealth jets. 8)


However even with the above said, yes I fully agree that systems like the S-400 will be a major threat non-stealth 4th gen fighter aircraft and such fighter aircraft will have a very hard time to survive against such advanced systems.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 00:09

SpudmanWP wrote:4th Gen can get a lot closer than the S-400's max range by using a combination of ESM, standoff munitions, and launching from below the sensor horizon of the S-400.


On the other hand a combination of using other radar systems connected with data-link to the S-400 system and Active-Radar Guided missiles (40N6E) could foil such tactic above and deny the capability for a 4th gen fighter aircraft to get that much closer than the S-400 maximum range - or at least deny the capability to get close enough to shoot against the S-400 before being shot at by the S-400.

IMO it is undeniable that the S-400 poses and will pose a major threat to non-stealth 4th gen fighter aircraft but then again this is a thing that as others pointed out, was already "discussed to the death".
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 06:10

A proper ingress would involve attacking (ESM and kinetic) each radar threat as it becomes a threat. This is why sending an entire package necessary to attack a deep target (ie the S-400 itself) requires multiple waves tasked with clearing a pathway to the target.

This is the reason and main advantage of a 5th gen force like the F-35. Using it's shared sensor network it can accurately map out the threats long before they become a threat. Once it knows where the threats are, a 5th gen force can wind it's way past the initial threat layers in order to attack targets deeper in enemy territory.
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usnimitz

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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 08:54

ricnunes wrote:However even with the above said, yes I fully agree that systems like the S-400 will be a major threat non-stealth 4th gen fighter aircraft and such fighter aircraft will have a very hard time to survive against such advanced systems.


I think with S-400 getting sold worldwide like hot cakes, It is game over for fighter jets. I saw the video of 15 to 20 S-400 missiles fired in 5 to 10 minutes. It was thunder and lightning when no rain clouds for miles and miles. :D

Only stealth fighter jets like F-35 can take a full scale war to 2 to 4 months.
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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 09:08

All the missiles, their fire rate, and range will do them no good if they cannot track a target.
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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 10:20

ricnunes wrote:
usnimitz wrote:S-400 missiles can hit targets 400 miles away. No fighter jets can fire missiles 400 miles away.


Actually the longest range S-400 missile, the 40N6E has a maximum range of 400 kilometers, not miles (there's quite a bit diference between kilometers, land miles and nautical miles).


That's true and we have to remember that max range applies to basically non-maneuverable targets flying straight and level towards the S-400 system. Engaging maneuverable targets cuts down the range a lot in every single SAM system. For example SAMP/T has max range of 120 km against large non-maneuverable aircraft like tankers and cargo aircraft. However against fighters the range is said to be about 30-50 km depending on situation. S-400 will also have shorter range against maneuverable fighter aircraft than the max range.

Besides, most S-400 systems will have only couple of those huge 40N6E missiles and most of the missiles have range below 250 km.

Of course S-400 is really dangerous system for any fighter jet flying inside their reach. VLO fighters with great SA will be quite safe but others have to use long range weapons, a lot of support and/or very dangerous low level flight paths. All these make things more difficult and slow down the air campaign. F-35 really changes things as it will be very difficult for S-400 to detect, track and engage successfully before being targeted itself.
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knowan

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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 13:32

Neither the 40N6 nor 48N6 missiles are intended for engaging manoeuvrable fighter sized targets; that's the job of the much smaller 9M96 missile, which has a claimed maximum range of just 120 km.
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Unread post16 Dec 2019, 21:06

Never trust the posted ranges of SAM systems its like the fuel economy sticker on new cars - its possible but very hard to achieve.

Combining the F-35 with 4th gen planes allows the F-35 to clear a path and guide the 4th generation planes around the threats.

There is also cyber attacks that may degrade the SAM system effectiveness and decoys that may make operators second guess wasting an expensive missile on an expendable decoy.
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boogieman

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Unread post17 Dec 2019, 02:17

knowan wrote:Neither the 40N6 nor 48N6 missiles are intended for engaging manoeuvrable fighter sized targets; that's the job of the much smaller 9M96 missile, which has a claimed maximum range of just 120 km.


I think you'd still have to be extremely careful in a 4/4.5 gen aircraft when faced with these missiles, but yes the larger issue is probably the fact that - when used in conjunction with EW systems like Krasukha - they could be used to force the likes of Sentry, Compass Call and JSTARS too far away from the FEBA to be effective.
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Unread post17 Dec 2019, 07:51

boogieman wrote:
knowan wrote:Neither the 40N6 nor 48N6 missiles are intended for engaging manoeuvrable fighter sized targets; that's the job of the much smaller 9M96 missile, which has a claimed maximum range of just 120 km.


I think you'd still have to be extremely careful in a 4/4.5 gen aircraft when faced with these missiles, but yes the larger issue is probably the fact that - when used in conjunction with EW systems like Krasukha - they could be used to force the likes of Sentry, Compass Call and JSTARS too far away from the FEBA to be effective.


Definitely they are very dangerous. Patriot missile accidentally shooting down F/A-18 and Tornado in 2003 and killing the crew members shows just how deadly these modern missile systems are. They are far more deadly than older SAM systems like SA-2 and SA-3 and even those have shot down modern 4th gen fighters like F-15 and F-16.
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