F-35 internal fuel, range

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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doge

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Unread post10 Oct 2019, 19:08

CSBA presents, Range survey and comparison but Source Unknown.
I'm dissatisfied with the CSBA diagram showing that the Range of F-35C is shorter than that of A-3(Fuel 30,000 lb), A-6(Fuel 17,000 lb), A-7(Fuel 10,000 lb) :bang: ...But on the other hand...
I am satisfied that it shows that the Range of F-35C is longer than F-4, F-14, F/A-18CD, F/A-18EF, F/A-XX. 8)
https://csbaonline.org/uploads/document ... f#page=138
CV aircraft range.jpg

It's, a Fuel 20,000 lbs single engine Monster... 8)
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playloud

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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 18:36

Maximum payload for the F-35 should be 22,000 lbs.
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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 20:14

playloud wrote:Maximum payload for the F-35 should be 22,000 lbs.

Thanks. LM reference that number here: https://www.f35.com/about/carrytheload/weaponry
"...In stealth mode, the F-35 can infiltrate enemy territory that other fighters can’t, carrying 5,700 pounds of internal ordnance. Once air dominance is established, the F-35 converts to beast mode, carrying up to 22,000 pounds of combined internal and external weapons, to return to the battle to finish the fight...."

Looks like CSBA did not add the combined internal/external loads? 5.7k + 18.3k = 22,000 pounds TOTAL
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Last edited by spazsinbad on 15 Oct 2019, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 20:21

playloud wrote:Maximum payload for the F-35 should be 22,000 lbs.



Puts it literally off the chart 8)
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playloud

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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 20:32

spazsinbad wrote:
playloud wrote:Maximum payload for the F-35 should be 22,000 lbs.

Thanks. LM reference that number here: https://www.f35.com/about/carrytheload/weaponry
"...In stealth mode, the F-35 can infiltrate enemy territory that other fighters can’t, carrying 5,700 pounds of internal ordnance. Once air dominance is established, the F-35 converts to beast mode, carrying up to 22,000 pounds of combined internal and external weapons, to return to the battle to finish the fight...."

Looks like CSBA did not add the combined internal/external loads? 5.7k + 18.3k = 22,000 pounds TOTAL

To be fair, the USAF and USN fact sheets list it at 18,000 lbs, as does the LM Fast Facts sheet. However, that never made sense given the internal/external hardpoint capacities. But, in the beast-mode advertisement you linked, they now specifically say it is 22,000 lbs, which jives with the hardpoint numbers.
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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 20:35

In the 'beast mode' thread there is discussion about this - I'll find the link soonish…. BTW CSBA should be brighter than us.

SOME LINKS: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=51255&p=376723&hilit=H4kuB58nENs#p376723
&
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&p=393671&hilit=H4kuB58nENs#p393671

BEAST MODE LM Jeff Babione Shares F-35 Update at ASC17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4kuB58nENs

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element1loop

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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 23:35

For F-35A/C:

18,000 lb total weapon load equates to:

5,700 lb (int) + 12,300 lb (ext) = 18,000 lb

The tallied weight allowance for each pylon comes to.

Max internal = 5,700 lb
Max external = 16,600 lb ... ... (4,300 lb more than the available 12,300 lb for external stores in a 18,000 lb total allowable payload)
Total = 22,300 lb

A maximium external load configuration would be:
2 x 5,000 lb weapon (includes 2 x 550 lb pylons)
2 x 2,500 lb weapon (includes 2 x 550 lb pylons)
2 x 300 lb (includes 2 x 113 lb pylons)
1 x 1,000 "multi-mission pod" (as centerline station is reported rated for 1,000 lb)

Which brings it up to about 16,600 lb of total max external weight that could be added to the jet.

I don't see a configuration where 18,000 lb external is even possible, unless the pylon stations were capable of carrying more weight than claimed. For instance, if a higher external weight was made possible via a reduced certification +/- G range. i.e. the official 18,000 lb of total payload would represent the allowable payload, without reducing +/-G numbers below required G ranges. Thus a "Beast mode" loading would only be viable with a reduced agility envelope in battle, plus non-standard weapons, and this may degrade structural life also. I'm betting we never see maximum loadings like that.

But even if you had full-fuel plus an actual 22,300 lb weapon load the takeoff-weight still only comes to 69,797 lb, or 203 lb less than MTOW

Now, if you had full-fuel plus the full 18,000 lb weapons load (theoretically possible, but unlikely) the actual takeoff-weight only comes up to 65,497 lb, or 4,503 lb less than certified MTOW.

But if you have full-fuel plus the maximum long-range standoff strike configuration possible, you get this:

2 x JSM @ 950 lb each = 1,900 lb
2 x AIM-120D @ 355 lb each = 710 lb
Full internal load = 2,610 lb

2 x AIM-9X @ 187 lb each = 374 lb
4 x JASSM-ER @ 2,250 lb each = 9,000 lb
Add pylon weight: 4 x Heavy weapon pylon @ 550 lb each + 2 x AAM rail pylon @ 113 lb each = 2,426 lb
Full external loading is therefore = 11,800 lb

So the maximum long-range strike takeoff weight is 11,800 lb external plus 2,610 lb internal = 14,410 lb

So, full-fuel plus the 14,410 lb, comes to 61,907 lb for a maximum strike-loading at takeoff, or 8,093 lb less than MTOW.

In this relatively light configuration power to weight looks like this:

Dry thrust:
28K lb Thrust @100% fuel = 0.452
28K lb Thrust @50% fuel = 0.532

Wet thrust:
43K lb Thrust @100% fuel = 0.695
43K lb Thrust @50% fuel = 0.817

And the achievable cruise altitude such a light takeoff weight and the resulting climb and cruise fuel-burn efficiency benefit will provide is a lot higher than what all prior strikefighters could achieve with their maximum long-range strike loads.

:applause:

EDIT1: I slipped up with the middle pylon's allowable weight limit, resulting numbers now adjusted.
EDIT2: All numbers updated using 'Spurts' suggested pylon weight additions, given immediately below.
Last edited by element1loop on 16 Oct 2019, 08:15, edited 4 times in total.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post15 Oct 2019, 23:57

Heavy pylons can weigh over 550lb each and AAM pylons can still be 200. In pylons alone you are looking at adding another 2,600lb possibly. I think the pod weighs 1700lb IIRC
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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 00:04

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Heavy pylons can weigh over 550lb each and AAM pylons can still be 200. In pylons alone you are looking at adding another 2,600lb possibly. I think the pod weighs 1700lb IIRC


OK, thanks.

The outer AAM station capacity is 300 lb and the missile is ~187 lb, so its pylon should weigh less than 113 lb.

EDIT: I've now updated my post above with Spurts suggested pylon weight numbers, and adjusted the resulting P:W numbers as well. (Note that the figures still don't include things like expendable countermeasures, fluids and/or compressed liquid-gases, that may add to payload weight, and are not a part of the empty-weight.)
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playloud

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Unread post16 Oct 2019, 01:39

The C model carries the gun pod, which would push total carriage on all hardpoints to 22,300 lbs. Not that you'd ever get every single pound out of each station.

F-35 hardpoints.jpg
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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 17:25

I... set off on a journey to find past Range articles. :crazypilot: It's a...treasure hunt...!! 8) (devour.)
http://secure.afa.org/media/scripts/conf2006_Davis.asp
AFA Transcripts
Brigadier General Charles R. Davis Deputy Program Executive Officer
F-35 Lightning II Program Office Air & Space Conference and Technology Exposition 2006
Washington, D.C. Sept. 26, 2006
"F-35 and What It Does"

This kind of gives you an idea of a little bit of the configuration differences. I’ll kind of show you how they match up to some of the legacy airplanes right here. The big point we need to emphasize on all of the discussions we have here, look at what the internal fuel is on all the airplanes. 18,000 on CTAL. Even STOVAL has 14,000; 20,000-plus on CV. That is a significant amount of range, more so than any legacy jet out there, and that is in a very, if you will, low observable, stealth configuration. To be able to carry that much gas, and you’ll kind of get an idea of what the range is. But most of the airplanes are well over 550, up past 650 nautical miles of range based on being able to carry weapons and that amount of fuel in a stealth, low observable configuration which is a new aspect that most of the services, short of the Air Force right now, that’s going to be picking up this airplane will have that they’ve never had before.

So if you think about the Department of the Navy, the Marines, and certainly all of our partner countries, never had a stealth platform, never had a day one stealth platform out there, this kind of gives you an idea of what the F-35 is going to do for them.

http://www.robodaily.com/reports/Lockhe ... t_999.html
Lockheed Martin F-35 Succeeds In First Aerial Refueling Test
by Staff Writers Fort Worth TX (SPX) Mar 16, 2008

The F-35 carries a prodigious amount of internal fuel - more than 18,000 pounds - giving it exceptionally long range without external tanks, and dramatically reducing its need for tanker support. The internal-fuel configuration enables the Lightning II to remain stealthy by avoiding external tank carriage typically used by legacy fighters to extend range.

https://vanguardcanada.com/2014/05/21/j ... iven-data/
The Joint Strike Fighter: Driven by data
Vanguard Staff (from Apr/May 2014)

“It has the best combat ID suite of any fighter I have ever come across,” he says. “And it has the most advanced suite of countermeasures of any fighter airplane.” In addition, he points out that the F-35 carries 18,500 pounds of onboard fuel, meaning it can stay in the fight longer than its fourth generation counterparts.

That range of capability – operating at distance, onboard electronic warfare, target identification, common situational awareness, and the ability to engage for longer duration – suggests a change in tactics.

O’Bryan says young pilots entering the F-35 program are already starting to think of new ways of operating. “They are getting very innovative. I have seen them in the simulator do things that I have learned from, things to create deception and surprise.” But that, too, will remain classified.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/03/05/f ... nthan-afb/
F-35 Demo Team Debuts with New Dynamic Aerobatic Routine at Davis-Monthan AFB
March 5, 2019

Capt. Olson went on to tell TheAviationist.com, “The stuff you see at the airshow is really awesome, but it doesn’t even touch the tip of the iceberg of what this airplane is. When you get out there and actually employ this airplane, you’re talking stealth, you’re talking sensor fusion, and then ‘information fusion’ is kind of another word we’ve been using recently. It’s fusing together information not only from itself, from sensor fusion, but also from all other different sources, coming in, and presenting it to the pilot to be able to make decisions not only for your own airplane, not only for your own wingman, but for the entire battle space, and its sharing that information for the whole battle space. So, the chief recently compared it to the quarterback on the field and I think that is a great analogy for what this airplane brings to the battle space. When we go out there we’ve got tons of gas, we can hang out for a long time and we can paint the battlespace for everybody and share that situational awareness with our fourth gen brothers and sisters and be a more effective fighting force.
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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 17:34

I am...The Runaway Train! :devil:
What I noticed when I was looking for; Mr.Billie Flynn often touches the F-35 Range. 8) (devour, Devour)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/lockhe ... -1.1324551
Lockheed Martin launches Canadian PR campaign for F-35
Terry Milewski · CBC News · Posted: Apr 08, 2013

'Stealth is not an accessory'
Flynn swoops into the fray fully loaded. For him, the price isn't really the issue. Spread over the 40-year lifespan of the fleet, he says, the F-35's cost will be roughly the same as its rivals.

Rather, the issue for him is whether Canada wants to send pilots to war with second-rate equipment. Having flown his share of Arctic-sovereignty missions in Canada's North, Flynn doesn't think much of them. Canada's CF-18s, he says, allowed only a "token presence." They couldn't see far or stay for long. The F-35, he says, has greater range and lets pilots see much more — covertly, too.

"With the immense amount of fuel — with 18,500 pounds of gas inside this jet — it has range and persistence better than any other jet," Flynn says.

"So I go further, I stay longer and with the sensors I see vast distances."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KppyVg4ttLU
A Pilot's Perspective: The F-35's Range
10/22/2013
Patrolling the far reaches of Canada requires a fighter with great range. F-35 test pilot Billie Flynn relates his experience as an RCAF pilot to the Lightning II's fuel capacity and range.

You know it's interesting all the fuel and the f-35 is carried internally in the body of the airplane and out on the wings.
I have 50% more fuel capacity in the f-35 than I did in the cf-18 that I flew as it as a young pilot and later into combat.
I go further I stay longer once I get there than I ever could in any of the in the see f-18 or any of the legacy fighters that I ever flew.
That translates when we're talking about patrolling the largest coastline Pacific and Atlantic in the world or the vast expanse of the Canadian Arctic.
That translates to significantly more range which means area covered and surveilled by us and allows us to stay on station and patrol an area much longer dramatically longer than I ever could in any of the fourth-generation airplanes that I flew it is measurable.
The difference in range and and persistence in the f-35 in the fourth-generation fighters you.

https://sldinfo.com/2014/06/shaping-arc ... -the-grid/
Shaping Arctic Defense: Leveraging the Grid
06/07/2014
Billie Flynn, former Canadian Air Force fighter pilot, is now an F-35 test pilot with Lockheed Martin. Flynn started flying the CF-18 some 30 years ago and retired after commanding 441 squadron and leading the Canadian task force involved in Kosovo.

Given the importance of CFB Cold Lake in any Arctic strategy, Flynn’s operational experience is suggestive of the way ahead if F-35s become the mainstay Canadian aircraft. “Because the F-35 is clean in design and operation, it goes further and stays longer in the airspace. This allows it to patrol the Arctic without the same level of tanker support that the CF-18 requires. It can stay over the Arctic area of operation to be able to see at distance,” he says.

“It will allow the Canadian Air Force to patrol areas with fighter aircraft in way they could not do before. As the CO of 441, to fly out of Cold Lake for Arctic ­sovereignty missions required a significant logistical support just to operate in the areas crucial for the mission. With 18,000 pounds of fuel on board the F-35, the pilots will operate longer and at greater range than with the CF-18.”

We then discussed impacts of combat systems for the Arctic sovereignty mission set. “Stealth allows the F-35 to patrol with impunity. The combination of 360° multi-spectral sensor, sensor fusion shared information among members of the network allows the F-35 to serve as a key node to a much broader grid than anyone would have thought possible with a tactical fighter,” he asserts.

Flynn believes that patrolling and guarding Canadian resources in the Arctic will be done on a order of magnitude more effectively with the F-35 than any legacy fighter platform. “The F-35 sees in depth and breadth and across many electronic spectrums as well. It can see hundreds of miles around itself and does so in a moving space as it operates. The pilot is in a shared sensor space – he is not operating as a unit of a squadron defined by wingmen.”

https://defensemaven.io/warriormaven/ai ... Zv5PZU9-w/
Warrior Maven Video Special: War in the F-35 - Pilot Interview
2/5/2019 By Kris Osborn
On F-35 Stealth
F-35 Pilot Billie Flynn: Stealth contributes to the survivability of the platform. The only way to achieve that survivability is to build an aircraft that is stealthy from the word "go" -- from the very beginning. The fuel is carried internally, 18,000 pounds of gas in an F-35A and 20,000 pounds of gas in an F-35C. The antennas are embedded into the skin of the airplane and every sensor is flush mounted into the airplane. This allows us to fly with less drag than any legacy platform, go farther and remain on station - and be survivable.

...... One of the most fascinating parts of the F-35 is how every hinge, every panel, every fastener and every bolt is closed back up when we are done with the maintenance of the airplane. Every time we take off in an F-35, we are in that stealth, non-visible configuration. We designed it so the stealth robustness will be maintained over many decades.
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