F-35 maneuver review: Zenith of all non-TVC jets

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 909
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post15 Jul 2017, 10:34

Feel free to move this to other forums, such as keypub.

1) Roll
During 2011 Paris airshow, even though F-35 did not schedule any flight demonstration that year, Raytheon system released a product test video, and some F-35 video was included accidentally (check 1 min 15 s):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qceZALo ... be&t=1m15s

The roll rate exceeds 300 deg/sec, much faster than the advertised roll rate of EF2000, Rafale, Su-27 and Mig-29.

2) Fast turn
No need of much talking. Check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU

Remember, this jet still 7G limited.

3) Vertical loop
This is by far the most astonishing maneuver for a non-TVC jet. It flips almost 270 deg in only 9 seconds, and its initial pitch rate is incredible:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S85cyE-BIJQ
9s 270 deg.png

F35 loop.gif

This loop is much faster than any non-TVC jet, including Typhoon, Rafale, Sukhoi and Fulcrum (non-TVC variants). This allows F-35 to easily get to the rear hemisphere of an enemy after the merge.
Some comparison:
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=-sf1H94FEME
https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=wc5mo18ShJA

What impressed me is the ability to continue generating up-pitch moment at high AOA. Some maneuvers, such as the Cobra maneuver, have a fundamental shortcoming: once the AOA gets high, the aircraft will be bounced back to small AOA immediately, because it could not balance the inherit down-pitch moment at high AOA. This almost neutralizes the total angle of nose pointing. The F-35, however, could continue pitching up and finish the loop.
A similar Russian maneuver is called “kulbit” but was only executed by TVC jets (Su-37, Su-35BM, Su-30MKI and Mig-29OVT. Su-37 and Mig-29OVT never made it to the mass production. And by the way, Mig-35 does not have TVC.).

4) Acceleration
This performance determines energy recovery and how often you could execute hard turns or wild nose pointing. The performance could not be judged from airshows, but from flight test data: F-35 out-accelerates Su-27/35 by a significant margin in subsonic region:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510

F-35 may suffer performance loss in transonic acceleration but that is not a big deal for present day dogfight. If you search for HUD footage of real dogfight trainings, 99% of them takes place in subsonic. Even though some may engage the enemy in transonic, after the first turn it bleeds off airspeed and drops below 400 kts. So the acceleration that affects tremendously E-M is in fact subsonic acceleration. If you have different opinion feel free to rebuttal me.

5) Pedal turn
This maneuver demonstrates a constant 28 deg/sec nose pointing (yaw axis), which is much faster than a conventional turn (banked turn, pitch axis). Conventional instantaneous turn of some jets may reach 30 deg/sec momentarily but it dissipates rapidly over time, so the pedal turn is still faster in an average sense. Some people argue that this maneuver allows F-35 to easily out-turn a non-TVC conventional jet because the latter could only execute conventional turns. IMHO however this maneuver could not be used alone, because F-35 loses altitude in pedal turn and some high T/W boomer-zoomer (F-15, F-16, Typhoon, Raptor…) could out-climb F-35 and kill it from above. This maneuver must be used in conjunction with other maneuvers. Two examples are listed below.
a) F-35 uses the tight loop ability to get first shot opportunity, then executes the pedal turn to continue tracking the target and score follow-up shots. This lines up with the lessons learnt by super hornet pilots with their pirouette maneuver:
http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADP011127
f-18 pirouette.jpg


b) F-35 executes a 180 deg pedal turn after a shallow climb to compensate for the ensuing altitude loss (this is equivalent to the notorious J-turn, which is proven by the F-35 high AOA test report).
f35 j-turn.jpg


Or rather, the J-turn comprises two phases, the ascending turn and the descending turn. The Descending part is used to regain the energy lost during the ascending part (this is why acceleration is so important!). It is the J-turn, not the pedal turn, that will dominate the conventional one circle or two circle fights.

A brief summery
The vertical loop is still the best F-35 maneuver. It looks good. It will come in handy in a real dogfight. The pedal turn is a nice thing to have but it should be used with extreme caution or it could get you killed.
Offline

mikemag

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 51
  • Joined: 03 Apr 2015, 13:19

Unread post15 Jul 2017, 13:03

Not new info, but still a pleasure to read. I can't wait to see what this bird does at 9Gs.
Offline

citanon

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 450
  • Joined: 01 Jul 2015, 21:42

Unread post15 Jul 2017, 20:12

Nice work. On the roll rate though, since it's a compilation video, it's possible that Raytheon sped up the video clip during editing to make it fit the clip length. It's also possible that the roll rate achieved during flight testing is higher than the rate ultimately allowed by control laws due to various factors like controllability and air frame stress.
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5528
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post15 Jul 2017, 22:09

citanon wrote:Nice work. On the roll rate though, since it's a compilation video, it's possible that Raytheon sped up the video clip during editing to make it fit the clip length.


Was also going to suggest the roll's been sped up. The motion did not look natural.
"There I was. . ."
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 909
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post26 Sep 2017, 14:26

F-35's J-turn:
20 Frames per second. Turns 180 degree in less than 2 seconds. Can be used in real combat scenario and confirmed by research articles.
Image
pic05.jpg

Image
Offline

Fox1

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 147
  • Joined: 05 Jul 2005, 04:16

Unread post29 Sep 2017, 03:10

The legacy Hornets in Swiss service are pretty damn impressive too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13atLHQ

I think I read somewhere before that the Swiss jets received some software updates that allows for maneuvers that other Hornets cannot do. Basically the computer is allowing the aircraft to briefly depart controlled flight in a controlled manner if that makes sense. Whatever the case, that is a most impressive demo for a non-TVC aircraft.
Offline

armedupdate

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 21:11

Unread post29 Sep 2017, 06:47

Isn't high AoA in knifebattle only good at lower altitudes/low speeds?
Offline
User avatar

neptune

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2896
  • Joined: 24 Oct 2008, 00:03
  • Location: Houston

Unread post29 Sep 2017, 07:11

....perhaps I missed this along the way and having the ultimate confidence in aerobatic capability of F-35s, "How" does one go about getting into a "Knife Fight" with a F-35?
:?:
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2993
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post29 Sep 2017, 07:17

Fox1 wrote:The legacy Hornets in Swiss service are pretty damn impressive too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5A13atLHQ

I think I read somewhere before that the Swiss jets received some software updates that allows for maneuvers that other Hornets cannot do. Basically the computer is allowing the aircraft to briefly depart controlled flight in a controlled manner if that makes sense. Whatever the case, that is a most impressive demo for a non-TVC aircraft.


Maybe you mean this? http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcont ... k_gradthes

Basically all legacy Hornets can be upgraded to this standard fairly easily and I think it has been done to many other Hornets beside Swiss.

I found it very interesting that such upgrades can and are done decades after aircraft type has entered service. I'm sure F-35 flight charcteristics and maneuverability will be upgraded decades from now on.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3737
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post30 Sep 2017, 16:51

neptune wrote:....perhaps I missed this along the way and having the ultimate confidence in aerobatic capability of F-35s, "How" does one go about getting into a "Knife Fight" with a F-35?
:?:


Probably as a result of ridiculous ROE. I.E. Must make visual confirmation of acquisition... Wouldn't be the first time ROE's have greatly hamstrung American technology. God forbid we lose a single F-35 like that, you know what the F-35 haters are going to do...
Offline

armedupdate

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 483
  • Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 21:11

Unread post01 Oct 2017, 05:29

Remember guys
Attachments
giphy.gif
Offline
User avatar

white_lightning35

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2016, 03:07
  • Location: Home of nuclear submarines, engines, and that's about it.

Unread post01 Oct 2017, 13:16

Does anyone else see something like sparks coming out of the afterburner towards the end of the gif?
Offline
User avatar

count_to_10

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3300
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 15:38

Unread post01 Oct 2017, 14:57

mixelflick wrote:
neptune wrote:....perhaps I missed this along the way and having the ultimate confidence in aerobatic capability of F-35s, "How" does one go about getting into a "Knife Fight" with a F-35?
:?:


Probably as a result of ridiculous ROE. I.E. Must make visual confirmation of acquisition... Wouldn't be the first time ROE's have greatly hamstrung American technology. God forbid we lose a single F-35 like that, you know what the F-35 haters are going to do...

Even then, the F-35 has been made to be ROE resistant.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
Offline
User avatar

durahawk

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 535
  • Joined: 03 Feb 2012, 20:35

Unread post01 Oct 2017, 15:48

white_lightning35 wrote:Does anyone else see something like sparks coming out of the afterburner towards the end of the gif?


Might be caused by a brief airflow separation in the intake given the extreme AoA.
Offline
User avatar

rheonomic

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 681
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 03:44

Unread post01 Oct 2017, 17:20

Looked almost like a compressor stall.
"You could do that, but it would be wrong."
Next

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 20 guests