F-35 fuel handling

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 09:50

'thepointblank' Thanks for that info - very interesting....
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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 11:36

Weren't they going to use a fuel chiller? I understood there was a fuel temp requirement for the "heat sink' specs.
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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 15:42

thepointblank wrote:The F/A-18 has a number of fuel temperature limits; one that comes to mind is if you are on the ground, have less than 1,000 pounds of fuel, and external temperatures exceed 30C, the Hornet will fairly quickly throw a Airframe Mounted Accessory Drive warning light, which the listed procedure is to shut down the engine involved.

If you are in the air with less than 4,000 pounds fuel remaining at low altitude, the pilot is required to monitor fuel temperatures as again, the Airframe Mounted Accessory Drive could overheat. In fact, if the fuel temperature exceeds 75C, the NATOPS says you need to land immediately.

Also, in hot weather conditions, the NATOPS says one needs to keep all non-essential electronics shut down while on the ground unless you are just about to take off.

The F-16's flight manual also indicates that there are engine fuel temperature limits; if the hot fuel warning light goes off, you are limited to 10,000ft maximum altitude and you need to increase fuel consumption to 4000pph, until you can land, which you are required to do so immediately.


I could have gone to bed earlier last night if you had posted sooner :wink:
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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 20:00

Heheh fanks 'smsgtmac' - get some rest. Meanwhile here is some more detail that may help?
Luke AFB changes refueling truck color, mitigates F-35 shutdowns
06 Dec 2014 Staff Sgt. Luther Mitchell Jr., 56th Fighter Wing Public Affairs

"..."We are taking proactive measures to mitigate any possible aircraft shutdowns due to high fuel temperatures in the future."

The squadron adopted the idea after it was first implemented at Edwards Air Force Base, California. [Wot? No story earlier? Wot?]

In the summer months at Luke AFB, temperatures can reach beyond 110 degrees. Painting the tanks white now will help prevent fuel stored in the tanks from over-heating.

"This is the short-term goal to cool the fuel for the F-35; however, the long-term fix is to have parking shades for the refuelers," Resch said.

The white paint is special because it is a solar polyurethane enamel that reflects the heat of the sun's rays. Interestingly, after dropping off the first truck to be painted, the 56th LRS learned it is not the color that reflects the heat.

"The painting process is a two-part process, and the second part is the reflective process," said Master Sgt. Joseph Maurin, the 56th LRS fuels distribution NCO in charge. "The painter said it did not have to be a white color, so we are going to send one of the four vehicles to get painted green, if possible. We will then compare temperatures between the green and white trucks."

Luke AFBs refuelers are also deployable and a white fuel truck would stick out like a sore thumb down range. The 56th LRS is hopeful that the tanks can be painted green and still keep fuel temperatures down.

The 56th LRS has been approved to paint four trucks and it takes about a week to complete, at a cost of $3,900 per truck."

Source: http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/t ... downs.aspx

Caption: http://media.dma.mil/2014/Dec/05/200095 ... 80-001.JPG (2.2Mb)

"Senior Airman Jacob Hartman checks out the newly painted R-11 refueling truck at the Logistic Readiness Squadron vehicle yard at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz. After receiving waiver approval from the Air Education and Training Command, the 56th LRS had the fuel tank painted white to keep the fuel inside from overheating. The changes to the truck were made because the F-35 Lightning II has a fuel temperature threshold and cannot function properly if the fuel temperature is too high. Hartman is a 56th LRS fuels distribution operator (U.S. Air Force photo/Staff Sgt. Luther Mitchell Jr.)"
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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 20:43

A 'good' beatup for Israel here with some HOT LEMONADE baby (this story is otherwise known as a 'beat up').
Problematic for Israel
10 Dec 2014 Hana Levi Julian

"Not even off the lot, the F-35 fighter jet is proving to be a bigger lemon than anyone first thought...."

Source: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breakin ... 4/12/10/0/
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Unread post10 Dec 2014, 22:35

Here we go (geez I'm getting old - as we used to say in Oz) with another Bob Rogers Show:
The Tale Of The F-35 And Hot Jet Fuel
10 Dec 2014 Colin Clark

"...“This is not an F-35 issue; there are no special restrictions on the F-35 related to fuel temperature. The F-35 uses the same fuel as other military aircraft. It can fly under the same temperature conditions as any other advanced military aircraft,” said Joe DellaVedova, program spokesman, in an email yesterday evening.

The folks at Luke say they are testing the new paint jobs to avoid problems, according to the AETC story: “‘It ensures the F-35 is able to meet its sortie requirements,’ said Chief Master Sgt. Ralph Resch, 56th LRS fuels manager. ‘We are taking proactive measures to mitigate any possible aircraft shutdowns due to high fuel temperatures in the future.'”

“Painting fuel trucks to reduce fuel temperature and improve aircraft performance will benefit legacy aircraft as well as F-35. There is no fuel temperature upper limitation on F-35 operations that would prevent sorties, and no sorties have been cancelled as a result of fuel temperature,” Kyra Hawn, deputy spokesman at the JPO, said in an email this morning. “Daily F-35 operations at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, and Luke Air Force Base have been unaffected by hot environment or fuel temperature.”

The plane is now undergoing climate tests: heat, cold, rain, snow, ice etc. A lab test imposing temperatures in excess of 130 degrees was just completed “and the aircraft performed exceptionally well based on preliminary information collected,” Hawn wrote. Full climate results will be ready in the spring of 2015."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/12/the- ... -jet-fuel/
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 12:27

maus92 wrote:Hmmm, with the Marines pushing for M-FARPS, maintaining the proper fuel temp might be interesting, particularly in the sandbox, and in other hot areas...

Luke AFB changes refueling truck color, mitigates F-35 shutdowns
By Staff Sgt. Luther Mitchell Jr., 56th Fighter Wing Public Affairs / Published December 06, 2014

"LUKE AIR FORCE BASE, Ariz. (AFNS) -- The 56th Logistics Readiness Squadron recently added a new fuel truck to its fleet designed to improve mission effectiveness and safety on the flightline.

However, it’s not really a new fuel truck, but an old fuel truck with its tank painted white.

What LRS Airmen once referred to as "Big Green," the “new” truck with a white fuel tank has been a little difficult for some to get used to; however, the change has a better purpose then just being aesthetically pleasing.

"We painted the refuelers white to reduce the temperature of fuel being delivered to the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter," said Senior Airman Jacob Hartman, a 56th LRS fuels distribution operator. "The F-35 has a fuel temperature threshold and may not function properly if the fuel temperature is too high, so after collaborating with other bases and receiving waiver approval from (the Air Education Training Command), we painted the tanks white."

With the change, the 56th LRS hopes for no delay in aircraft take-offs, all while maintaining mission sorties and ensuring pilots meet training requirements.

"It ensures the F-35 is able to meet its sortie requirements," said Chief Master Sgt. Ralph Resch, the 56th LRS fuels manager. "We are taking proactive measures to mitigate any possible aircraft shutdowns due to high fuel temperatures in the future."

The squadron adopted the idea after it was first implemented at Edwards Air Force Base, California.

In the summer months at Luke AFB, temperatures can reach beyond 110 degrees. Painting the tanks white now will help prevent fuel stored in the tanks from over-heating.

"This is the short-term goal to cool the fuel for the F-35; however, the long-term fix is to have parking shades for the refuelers," Resch said...."

Source: http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/t ... downs.aspx


Shelters and white painted trucks - not something you really want in forwards areas.



Hopefully this whole episode shows why its bad for enlisted support personnel to take the initiative and proactively work to stop problems before they even happen. Thanks Maus.

And BTW, Fuel trucks operate in forward areas all the time, unless you think that Bradleys, Abrams, and hundreds of other Humvees and trucks run on hope and tanker farts.

Note how well the Green blends in too.

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_hemtt_m978_700_06.jpg

http://washingtonguard.org/news/images/ ... /COVER.JPG

Good god the age of the internet... Where if someone has never heard of something before, its never happened before. And one doesn't just leap to conclusions, they cannonball into them
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 13:41

spazsinbad wrote:
Would having a 'fuel refrigerator' powered by the same fuel from the hot truck help?


LOL@spaz. You think in an age of hovering super sonic stealth fighters that can operate from small carriers that the technology exists to refrigerate the tank of a truck?? back to reality my friend.

Maybe some day, maybe some day. When we have floating cars and I'm sending my kids to space school with their rocket packs...

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This problem will be unsolvable for a at least another few decades.

OMFG!! Someone get that guy off that death trap!

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How will they operate at forward bases!

http://gdb.rferl.org/266C1B1A-47BE-4F91 ... 24_s_n.jpg

How did they find them!?

http://online.wsj.com/media/101311pod03_J.jpg

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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 18:56

Sadly, with the age of the internet, people haven't learned common sense or logic.
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 19:33

Lookin' to plink some of dem white tankers...

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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 20:53

Is it me, or does the Gunpod look like it has a smiley face on the front where the intake / barrel holes are located?
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 20:54

http://www.dailytech.com/Air+Force+Worr ... e36985.htm

And the purported F-35 fuel problem keeps on spreading throughout the web.

-_-
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 21:07

Yep the smiley face is becuz of this quote from above URL:
"...given the delicate nature of the powerful engine that drives the jet...."
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 22:09

thepointblank wrote:The F/A-18 has a number of fuel temperature limits; one that comes to mind is if you are on the ground, have less than 1,000 pounds of fuel, and external temperatures exceed 30C, the Hornet will fairly quickly throw a Airframe Mounted Accessory Drive warning light, which the listed procedure is to shut down the engine involved.

If you are in the air with less than 4,000 pounds fuel remaining at low altitude, the pilot is required to monitor fuel temperatures as again, the Airframe Mounted Accessory Drive could overheat. In fact, if the fuel temperature exceeds 75C, the NATOPS says you need to land immediately.

Also, in hot weather conditions, the NATOPS says one needs to keep all non-essential electronics shut down while on the ground unless you are just about to take off.

The F-16's flight manual also indicates that there are engine fuel temperature limits; if the hot fuel warning light goes off, you are limited to 10,000ft maximum altitude and you need to increase fuel consumption to 4000pph, until you can land, which you are required to do so immediately.

Exactly. This isn't an F-35 only issue, although its been reported as such in certain media.

The early SuperBugs had major issues with high fuel temp and trapped fuel etc. when flying in hot conditions. On one flight that I recall, the crew had a dual AMAD caution during takeoff and aborted. The cause was hot fuel being loaded into the jet that got even hotter during taxiing.

What I find strange in all these discussions is that most people seems to think that having hot fuel in a refueling tanker is not a problem. Fuel vapor is quite explosive and JP-8 has a flash point of 38 Degrees Celsius.

I found this when searching for further info, from AZ National Guard;
http://www.azguard.gov/AZAASF1/quizstar ... safety.ppt
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Unread post11 Dec 2014, 22:38

Had not known about JP-8: PDF made from the .PPT above attached
Military Jet Fuel Grades and Specifications (NATO)

"...JP-8 is the military equivalent of Jet A-1 with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-T-83188D. It is the dominant military jet fuel grade for NATO airforces. The UK also have a specification for this grade namely DEF STAN 91-87 AVTUR/FSII (formerly DERD 2453). NATO Code F-34...."

Source: http://www.shell.com/global/products-se ... rades.html
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