F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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Conan

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 05:38

spazsinbad wrote:The COBRA defeated in this 'suicide scenaro':

Air-to-Air Fighter Combat Application of Pugachev’s Cobra Maneuver: Busting the Western Myth


I imagine an unbelievably large amount of praying to god the opposing fighter doesn't exploit the Cobra pilots sudden lack of energy and ability to maneuver and just pump A2A missiles into him whilst he is performing this, makes up a significant part of this "tactical" maneuver?

This type of scenario in which a pilot for some reason deliberately eliminates virtually ALL his energy, maneuver capability and situational awareness, whilst his opponent loses NONE of his has always appeared rather strange to me, but the best of luck to those who want to try it in a real shooting war...
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popcorn

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 06:30

count_to_10 wrote:So, this would be an IRST that can point itself down past a right angle with respect to the airframe?
Aren't the Russian IRST on a fixed mount in the nose?

Otherwise, how exactly did the Cobra improve the odds of winning the "dogfight" over just firing while flying forward? What prevents the opponent from shooting down the now much less energetic aircraft?


Do such trivial details really matter? After all, the author claims his source is a "highly accomplished and well respected aeronautics designer/engineer who's worked on major US fighter programs and air-to-air missile programs " who in turn received the info from a "highly credible" source at TsAGI. For good measure, the US sources is also "highly credible". Of course, their names can only be revealed should they grant permission.
Charlie Deepthroat has some competition.
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popcorn

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 06:31

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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 07:39

Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?
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cantaz

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 14:13

Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.
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castlebravo

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 18:20

cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.
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sferrin

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 18:45

castlebravo wrote:
cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.


Yeah but at least the fanboys could brag about how cool he looked when he got shot down. :lmao:
"There I was. . ."
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XanderCrews

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Unread post30 Sep 2013, 21:51

castlebravo wrote:
cantaz wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Wouldn't most says such maneuvers are options but rare ones?


Pulling the ejection handle is also option, but that doesn't make it a meaningful option.


I think pulling the handle before the merge might actually result in a higher survival rate for the pilot than performing a cobra.


https://www.janitorialworld.com/Guardia ... 443064.jpg
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zero-one

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 15:54

haavarla wrote:What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


Both The F-22 and F-15 performs what we commonly call a maximum performance take off at the start of their routines, however the Raptors Max performance take off is exceptionally aggressive, as it snaps its nose violently to the vertical,

The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,

try to watch "inside the Nest" a documentary on the Raptor's demo team, there, each maneuver is elaborated and explained, its very informative in my oppinion.

as for max take off weight, its been discussed here that the Raptor is required to carry 18,000lbs of fuel on its demo, more than enough to relocate to a freindly base if needed
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haavarla

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 17:18

zero-one wrote:
haavarla wrote:What is a snap take-off?

Does it include the following:
Minimum take-off lenght?
Maximum Climb rate after Rotation?
High speed/low flying before Climbing?

And what is a Power loop??

I've seen hundreds of Vids and i've been to several Airshows.
But i have never heard about a "Power loop" and "snap take-off"..
Is this some newly invented LM trade or..?


Both The F-22 and F-15 performs what we commonly call a maximum performance take off at the start of their routines, however the Raptors Max performance take off is exceptionally aggressive, as it snaps its nose violently to the vertical,


There are many vids of the F-22 display. It rotate, then goes several 100 meters Down the runway to buildup speed/energy before it goes nose up. I fail to see what is so extrodinary about it.

The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,


Ok. A simple backflip at the end of the Climb then.


as for max take off weight, its been discussed here that the Raptor is required to carry 18,000lbs of fuel on its demo, more than enough to relocate to a freindly base if needed


i know. I read the F-22 Airshow rutine memo.
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zero-one

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 17:38

A lot of planes can point straight to the vertical and accelerate while climbing but very few can do it at take-off

Thats because in order to acheive this, the plane will rely solely on thrust, at take off where the plane is at its heaviest very few have the thrust required to acheive that kind of maneuver.

This is why most planes have what we call a Maximum take off weight that has to be strictly followed.


You're right about the "back flip at the end of a climb" though, but they call it a power loop so who are we to judge,

why do they call it a cobra, they could just call it "pointing the nose up to slow down then pitching it back down again"

currently imagining the comentator saying

"and now at show center its the backflip after the climb"
[backround music: Miley Cyrus: its the climb]


however this is an extreamly short climb, the F-22 also performs a backflip after a long climb after its take off.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 18:11

'zero-one' said:
"...and now at show center its the backflip after the climb"
[backround music: Miley Cyrus: its the climb]..."

Is that like TWERKing in aircraft? :D What a change from this:



To this: (quite a climb)
Attachments
robin-thicke-miley-cyrus.png
MileHighCyrusClimbingScreenie.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Prinz_Eugn

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 18:32

Oh god... this is where I go to get away from the rest of the internet!
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zero-one

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 18:41

Cant quite see the one who posted it, but I'm preatty sure I saw

The F-35 will be limited to Rafale or Typhoon like demos


Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the F-35 is not known for Sustained turn rates where these two aircrafts excel on,

The F-35 on the otherhand excels on high Alpha whereas the Typhoon and Rafale would be lucky to acheive half of the F-35s FCS AOA limits

I read Billy Flynn's statement comparing it to the F-16Vista if im not mistaken, or was it F-18 HARV, can't seem to find the link, Billy Flynn also said that the F-35 had nearly the same E-M diagrams as the F-18, with better acceleration at some parts of the envelope.
which is why i often watch the F-18s demos and imagine that the Lightning will do the same if not a bit better.

what do you guys think
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Raptor_claw

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Unread post01 Oct 2013, 19:26

haavarla wrote:
The powerloop however is what the commentator calls the maneuver where the Raptor rotates on one spot in the sky,

Ok. A simple backflip at the end of the Climb then.
Would be easier to explain this with a picture, but I don't have the time.

A power loop is not the same as a "backflip". In a backflip (aka kulbit) the aircraft velocity vector (the path of the center-of-gravity) follows a more-or-less "straight" path and the aircraft rotates completely around that path. In aircraft terms, during a "flip" angle-of-attack increases to +90 then +179, then -179 (flying tail first), then -90, then back to through 0 to a normal range. Think of flipping a pancake - the cake as a whole goes straight up and comes straight down - the spinning of the cake has little effect on the trajectory.

In a power loop the aircraft c.g. actually makes a circle, just like in a normal "loop", but much smaller. IOW, if you traced out the path of the c.g. in the sky it would kind of resemble one of those "Support XYZ" ribbon magnets you see on cars. During the loop, AOA is held at a large positive, but nearly constant, value (~60 ballpark) during the whole event. As such, positive lift is maintained throughout (unlike during the extreme and negative AOA parts of the "flip"). The key being that during the whole event the aircraft is flying in a "normal" envelope and under positive control, unlike a true "flip" which is much more ballistic.
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