F-35 and Airshows

gta4 · by **gta4** » 21 Jun 2019, 06:51

WOW, having seen so many footage of 180 shot, I have to admit, MICA is the one that flies furthest and maintain the longest airborne time. MICA must have a big engaging envelope.

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 21 Jun 2019, 10:47

Impressive footage but I am still skeptical (though not as much as I used to be) about how effective it can actually be. I can see plenty of benefit in a over the shoulder shot as two aircraft come to the merge. However, I would think that if the enemy aircraft is already at your 6 and is in a good firing position... you might as well be s**t out of luck. At best I would think the missile would be used to get the enemy off you giving you a chance to disengage and get out.

So to simplify it for my ground pounder mind visualizing it in a flat 2 dimensional overhead view... modern missiles with now have an engagement envelope shaped more like an wide oval shape while and missiles that do not have a rear attack capability but still have HOBs capability is more pacman in shape?

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 21 Jun 2019, 11:40

gta4 wrote:Another 180-turn-capable missile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr4f-tNKaOs
check 2:40 for live footage

Yep, that was posted four posts above yours.

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 21 Jun 2019, 11:42

charlielima223 wrote:However, I would think that if the enemy aircraft is already at your 6

They can't just teleport there, they have to fly through the missile's envelope to get there.

mixelflick · by **mixelflick** » 21 Jun 2019, 15:44

firebase99 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Now THAT was impressive!

Had only seen "over the shoulder" AMRAAM shots in simulations. To see a live AAM perform such a maneuver... wow. Wouldn't want to be pursuing that jet..

Surprised youve never seen those vids before. Been youtube for years. I was flabbergasted when i saw them the first time too. I was like...whoa...magic missiles!! lol.

To be honest, I forgot about the AIM-9x shots from F-15's and 18's that's out there. But this MICA video is likewise impressive. I guess the 9x wasn't quite "over the shoulder", where this one was. Regardless, two very nasty weapons that mean the merge is to be avoided at all costs

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 21 Jun 2019, 16:03

mixelflick wrote: I guess the 9x wasn't quite "over the shoulder", where this one was.

0:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8b2aoeS78A

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 21 Jun 2019, 16:28

Regarding video immediately above this post - video does not play - tried in three browsers in Win10 to no avail:

"An error occurred. Please try again later. (Playback ID: GGS8jM_gosrsskM0)"

Tried: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b2aoeS78A 'Video unavailable'

gta4 · by **gta4** » 21 Jun 2019, 16:51

And the point is F-35 is the only aircraft that could to this alone. Other jets need 3rd party targeting.

Quality vs Quantity

gta4 · by **gta4** » 21 Jun 2019, 17:02

If F-35 could demo "solo 180 shot" that would be much more important than post-stall flips or drift turns. That would shut up almost all critics. Enemy pilots won't sleep well.

wrightwing · by **wrightwing** » 21 Jun 2019, 18:28

gta4 wrote:If F-35 could demo "solo 180 shot" that would be much more important than post-stall flips or drift turns. That would shut up almost all critics. Enemy pilots won't sleep well.

That's been one of the major selling points of the F-35, for many years .

charlielima223 · by **charlielima223** » 22 Jun 2019, 02:44

sferrin wrote:
They can't just teleport there, they have to fly through the missile's envelope to get there.

Please do not take my comment out of context with over dramatization. Beyond test footage and sales marketing, things happen and more often, not in your favor.
What if an enemy fighter jet manages to sneak pass you in all the chaos? What if the enemy fighter is another stealth fighter? What if your first salvo of missiles all fail to connect somehow (a former USMC fighter jock i have some acquaintance with joked, "miss" is the first word in "missile"). We all know crap happens. After all in its first red flag debute USAF F-35As that were shot down were all in WVR engagements. From my understanding red air used tactics that managed to let then get in close where stealth doesnt mean much. We can all go on with "what ifs".

As stated, i am more convinced with over the shoulder shots during the first seconds of the merge than a missile pulling an extreme 180 to engage at an enemy at your 6. Also like i said, what if that enemy aircraft already in a more advantageous position?

No doubt modern missile technology/capabilities have made air combat more and more dangerous and complicated. However if these missiles were indeed the end all be all, why design an aircraft with good maneuvering qualities? Why teach ACM/BFM?

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 22 Jun 2019, 03:25

Why indeed?!? Why indeed 'What IFs'?!? WTF over. :roll:

What IFs feature everywhere except most likely real world. :roll:

I think it was 'QS' and also others who have said repeatedly: "ACM teaches a pilot how to use the aircraft to the extreme edges of flight envelope" and with the F-35 it can go beyond and recover safely (don't know if they actually do that in training - maybe later). Certainly in the sim an F-35 pilot can go to an extreme. Every miljet pilot wants to be able to fly to the extreme parts of the flight envelope just so they know what can be done IF they need it in reality + ACM is fun.

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 22 Jun 2019, 04:27

spazsinbad wrote:Regarding video immediately above this post - video does not play - tried in three browsers in Win10 to no avail:
"An error occurred. Please try again later. (Playback ID: GGS8jM_gosrsskM0)"

Tried: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b2aoeS78A 'Video unavailable'

It appears to be fixed now. For whatever reason I couldn't embed it. I click on the link in my post now though and it works. (No idea why as it appears to be identical to yours, which doesn't work-I tried yours.) Jeez, just noticed the video was made 20 years ago. :shock:

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 22 Jun 2019, 04:53

After the 'equals' sign in the youtube link in your original post an 'hyphen' was missing so there was no video at address.

Unleashing the AIM 9X Sidewinder [2008] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8b2aoeS78A

gta4 · by **gta4** » 22 Jun 2019, 05:08

charlielima223 wrote: However if these missiles were indeed the end all be all, why design an aircraft with good maneuvering qualities? Why teach ACM/BFM?

Good question.

Rely less on HOBS/LOAL, you have greater range and PK rate, because missile waste less energy in the first turn.

High maneuverability and HOBS are both good things. However if I am forced to choose one... I pick the HOBS.

Remember the F-16 vs German Mig-29 exercise in 1990's? F-16 could outmaneuver Mig-29 in 60% of the scenarios, however Mig-29 could get first shot in most cases due to HMD+R73