F-35B/C and the Ski-Jump?

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spazsinbad

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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 05:48

KRB says:
"...But the benefits would be allowing even heavier loads than existing max gross weights to take off....

...I'm making assumptions that future aircraft will be pretty heavy or have options to load up in weapons + fuel to be even heavier than current limits."

Max Gross Weight is for the aircraft - not the catapults in use today or in future. I have read that EMALS is scalable but at moment engineered for what is envisaged at both the HIGH and the LOW weight ends (to include small UAVs for example).

Current USN steam catapults are very effective as shown on probably the very long thread near the beginning when peeps were questioning my knowledge/cred about such matters as conventional catapulting. So the LIMIT is not for current catapults but for aircraft. May I repeat: Aircraft are designed for flat decks or ski jumps as they are OR may be built in some reasonable future time (if there is no requirement to operate off existing decks). It will be probably be a cold day in hell if a SHIP/Carrier is ever designed for an aircraft. :mrgreen: :devil: :mrgreen: Why? Because once that is done future aircraft will have to conform to the limits of the ship. No? Or are we going to have new ships endlessly redesigned for new aircraft? Don't think so - but - hey - in your dreams. :doh: :drool:

Aircraft are the factors that break the existing gear. Aircraft WILL NOT break existing or future gear on a carrier (unless minor mods required as we have seen for LHAs & CVNs - bearing in mind ships go for regular refits when minor mods are carried out all the time because these ships have a long life these days and are designed for same - probably aircraft also) as we know for the F-35B/Cs - which is also the case for new aircraft [knowing that the limits of ship equipment not breached in design phase of naval aircraft].
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 06:54

An example of a 'skijump' before time began c.Early1940s....
Commander Nat Gould RAN
14 Dec 2010 by Geoff Raebel

“...the convoy was HMS Argus, the 1918 progenitor of all aircraft carriers. With Hurricanes as deck cargo, they approached to within a couple of hundred miles of Murmansk when she flew off the Hurricanes to find their own way to Russia. Two damaged their under carriages on the launching hump at the end of the deck and had to fly wheels down all the way....” c. mid 1941"

Photos show BARRACUDAS mit HUMP 1944: http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... b3e438.jpg
&
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com ... 224cc3.jpg

Source: http://www.raafinrussia.com/commandernatgouldran.html

And perhaps least remembered is the initial lower angled ski jump as used by RN. I'll guess increasing the angle was more beneficial performance-wize for the STOVL aircraft going ballistic under flying speed but still controllable with the thingamejigs whilst it accelerated Upwards:
"...ski jump slope was initially 7°, later increased to 12° for all..."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 00091.html
Attachments
ARGUSbarracudasHUMP1944.jpg
INVINCIBLE7degreeSkiJumpInitial1980.gif
Last edited by spazsinbad on 25 Feb 2015, 07:02, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 07:01

spazsinbad wrote:KRB says:
"...But the benefits would be allowing even heavier loads than existing max gross weights to take off....

...I'm making assumptions that future aircraft will be pretty heavy or have options to load up in weapons + fuel to be even heavier than current limits."

Max Gross Weight is for the aircraft - not the catapults in use today or in future. I have read that EMALS is scalable but at moment engineered for what is envisaged at both the HIGH and the LOW weight ends (to include small UAVs for example).

Current USN steam catapults are very effective as shown on probably the very long thread near the beginning when peeps were questioning my knowledge/cred about such matters as conventional catapulting. So the LIMIT is not for current catapults but for aircraft. May I repeat: Aircraft are designed for flat decks or ski jumps as they are OR may be built in some reasonable future time (if there is no requirement to operate off existing decks). It will be probably be a cold day in hell if a SHIP/Carrier is ever designed for an aircraft. :mrgreen: :devil: :mrgreen: Why? Because once that is done future aircraft will have to conform to the limits of the ship. No? Or are we going to have new ships endlessly redesigned for new aircraft? Don't think so - but - hey - in your dreams. :doh: :drool:

Aircraft are the factors that break the existing gear. Aircraft WILL NOT break existing or future gear on a carrier (unless minor mods required as we have seen for LHAs & CVNs - bearing in mind ships go for regular refits when minor mods are carried out all the time because these ships have a long life these days and are designed for same - probably aircraft also) as we know for the F-35B/Cs - which is also the case for new aircraft [knowing that the limits of ship equipment not breached in design phase of naval aircraft].


Fair enough, I wasn't really expecting them to go with the Ski-Ramp catapult anytime in the near future.

It's one of those wild ideas.

The fact that the USAF tested a Ski-Ramp for land usage was pretty cool.

Hopefully they'll make use of that technology in the near future.
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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 07:05

I would have thought the USMC would get such a notion (portable ski jump). I have read that decades ago it was considered but I'll guess now that the F-35B is so versatile in take off and landing in MODE FOUR that a ski jump is irrelevant ashore and even afloat.

AS for damaged runways with portable ski jumps? It seems the bomb damage repair brigade have it covered. OR NOT - if they have survived.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 07:26

spazsinbad wrote:I would have thought the USMC would get such a notion (portable ski jump). I have read that decades ago it was considered but I'll guess now that the F-35B is so versatile in take off and landing in MODE FOUR that a ski jump is irrelevant ashore and even afloat.

AS for damaged runways with portable ski jumps? It seems the bomb damage repair brigade have it covered. OR NOT - if they have survived.


How many bomb damage repair brigades are assigned to each airbase?
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Unread post25 Feb 2015, 07:47

Probably anyone who can man a shovel gets to be in it? Quick Drying Concrete is probably very quick these days. Whatever. I'll upload a new 'ski jump' PDF in a day or so. There is one on the SpazSinbad pages already but it does not include the recent GOA SBTF info. I was going to wait for any RECENT (as noted above) F-35B material - so perhaps I will wait as the SBTF material is on this thread anyway - the rest of info is in PDF more or less. So go here:

Folder: SkiJumpInfo28may2014

SkiJumpInfoCVF&othersTesting28may2014pp163.pdf (18Mb)

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... =822839791

I'll put the same PDF here in a few minutes:

Folder: F-35 Lightning II Material

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#fo ... EJvU09qWDQ

DO NOT FORGET - DO NOT LEFT Mouse click on a file - RIGHT MOUSE CLICK & 'SAVE AS' to your computer to view with the latest Adobe Reader suitable for your Operating System. Go here: http://get.adobe.com/reader/otherversions/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post06 Mar 2015, 04:12

Repair Hombres and Hombresses at work...
Marines join Kadena Airmen for contingency exercise
05 Mar 2015 Airman 1st Class John Linzmeier, 18th Wing Public Affairs

"KADENA AIR BASE, Japan (AFNS) -- Civil engineer Airmen and combat engineer Marines participated in a joint airfield damage and repair contingency exercise Feb. 26, at Kadena Air Base, Japan.

Joint forces from the 172nd and 171st Engineering Companies and 18th Civil Engineer Squadron worked together to repair a damaged runway in response to a simulated air attack.

"Our mission is to reestablish an operational runway so that we can get planes in and out," said 2nd Lt. David Brown-Dawson, the 18th CES Airfield Damage and Repair officer in charge. "If an attack were to actually happen, we need to utilize all of our assets, and that's military wide. Not just Air Force, not just Navy, Army and the Marines; we all need come together because we're all fighting the same fight."

The exercise gave members from both services the opportunity to showcase their runway repair capabilities and helped them establish more effective ways to communicate and react in a crisis situation.

"It's been really helpful to come out and see how the Air Force does it because this is their bread and butter," said Marine Corps 1st Lt. John Mutton, the 172nd Marine Wing Support Squadron combat engineer officer, "They are also able to see how we operate as well, which allows us to establish relations that are really helpful for the future."...

...While each service follows different response procedures, the exercise helped them to understand how one another operate and combine assets improving their ability to work together."

PHOTO: http://media.dma.mil/2015/Mar/05/200101 ... 56-178.JPG
Caption: "Loaders, operated by 18th Civil Engineer Group Airmen, level out a 50-foot crater on a mock runway Feb. 26, 2015, at Kadena Air Base, Japan. Marines from the 172nd and 171st Engineering Companies participated in a joint airfield damage and repair contingency exercise to learn how civil engineer Airmen respond to airfield damage and to strengthen joint capabilities of reestablishing an operational runway. (U.S. Air Force photo/Airman 1st Class John Linzmeier)"

Source: http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/t ... rcise.aspx
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150226-F-GR156-178.JPG
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post06 Mar 2015, 18:41

Thanks to 'bager1968' on the NavWeaps forum here [ http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... sert-Storm ] is the 1991 FOCHed 1.5 degree catapult RAMP test photie:

http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Bager19 ... u.jpg.html
&
http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Bager19 ... x.gif.html
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Foch%20ski-jump_zpstlieziqu.jpg
Rafale%20Foch_zpspvpszqcx.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 09:54

LCA Navy Maiden Ski Jump Details & Analysis
21 Dec 2014 UNK

"LCA Navy's maiden ski jump take-off at SBTF at INS Hansa on December 20, 2014 was a milestone event, not because it happened (Ski jump take-off are as old as the Harriers!), but because it happened in hands-off automated take-off mode!

Yes, LCA Navy feature hands-off take-off using ski-jump to ensure smooth transition to stable flight, and hands-off landing with steady AOA, autothrottle approach, flareless touchdown, and arrester hook engagement. During take-off and landing the pilot is required to only give steering inputs to stay on the center line.

According to a DRDO press release on the test flight, Naval Prototype 1 (NP-1) - piloted by Commodore Jaideep Maolankar, the Chief Test Pilot of National Flight Test Center - had a perfect flight with results matching the predicted ones to the letter. The flight validated the hands-off take-off algorithm of the Flight Control Software (FCS).

NP-1 attempted the ski-jump after a 300-m roll in clean configuration presumably with full internal fuel.

A safe take-off required 150 knot at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft achieved higher acceleration with a climb rate of around 11 degrees.

In the tests ahead, NP1 will progressively reduce the length of its take-off roll and increase payload. INS Vikramaditya, which could one day base LCA Navy, has a total deck length of 273-m. The maximum take off length available is between 160-180 metres.

The ultimate goal for the LCA Navy program is to demonstrate a full load take-off with 90-m roll.

Five more ski-jump take-offs are planned in the current series of tests.

"Based on the test points achieved, we will schedule the next leg of trials," DRDO Director-General (Aero) Dr K Tamilmani told OneIndia.com.

According to Tamilmani, NP-1 will start arrester hook landing trials within 6-8 months.

It's pertinent to remember that LCA Navy is in Phase-1 of its development, which involves using a LCA Mk-1 modified to take off using a ski jump and perform arrested landing. Phase 1 is a technology development and demonstration phase.

In Phase 2, LCA Navy will be certified for carrier operations using aircraft built in the Tejas Mk2 configuration, powered by GE-414-INS6 engine with a max thrust of 22,000 lbs.

Only Phase 2 aircraft will participate in carrier operation certification
, with Phase 1 aircraft being reserved exclusively for SBTF operations.”

PHOTO: http://i.imgur.com/rWmEClY.jpg

Source: http://defesa.forums-free.com/tejas-ind ... 64s60.html
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NAVY-LCAtejasFirstSkiJumpSBTFgoa20Dec2014.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Mar 2015, 22:21

Does anyone have transcripts or a video of this ?

http://aerosociety.com/Events/Event-Lis ... on-Fighter
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Unread post14 Mar 2015, 01:28

A Demo of the tech at SBTF on show in Russian Northern Waters:
Arctic drills: Russia’s Northern fleet pilots polish deck takeoff & landing skills
Published on Oct 1, 2014 RT

"Naval pilots of Russia’s Northern Fleet successfully executed training exercises flying the SU-25 and SU-33 jets off the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft-cruiser."

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Unread post11 May 2016, 20:21

Naval Tejas successfully tested in Goa, will fly off aircraft carrier next year
10 May 2016 Ajai Shukla

"The naval version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which will operate from India’s indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, after it is commissioned in 2018, has completed a successful flight-test campaign in Goa.

Commodore (Retired) CD Balaji, chief of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas development programme, told Business Standard that taking off and landing from a 200-metre deck has been fully established. So has “hot-refuelling” --- topping up the aircraft after a sortie with the engine running and the pilot in the cockpit --- which allows a rapid turnaround between sorties.

For the navy, it is vital to ready the Tejas for the INS Vikrant and, subsequently, INS Vishal. The MiG-29K will be the medium fighter on INS Vikrant, as it already is on INS Vikramaditya. The Tejas is crucial for filling in the light fighter slot.

Balaji reveals a committed navy is funding 40 per cent of the development cost of the Naval Tejas. The MoD has allocated Rs 3,650 crore for the naval programme.

The ADA chief described the flight trials in Goa between March 27 and April 25, in which two Naval Tejas prototypes flew 33 sorties from a Shore Based Test Facility (SBTF) -- a full-scale replica of an aircraft carrier deck. Built on land, the SBTF allows carrier deck take-offs and landings to be validated, without unduly endangering an aircraft carrier, or an aircraft prototype and pilot....

...In December 2014, the Naval Tejas had taken off from the SBTF ski-jump after rolling 300 metres. Now, the fighter has proven it can take off from just 200 metres, even carrying two R-73 close combat missiles.

“With this campaign, ski-jump launches are no longer a challenge. We will now explore the limits the fighter can be taken to. We will further fine-tune the control law software to take-off with higher payloads,” said Balaji.

In aircraft carrier combat operations at sea, the Naval Tejas must take off with up to 3.5 tonnes of payload--- more fuel for longer range; and more weapons for a lethal punch. For this, the aircraft carrier would steam into the wind, ensuring a “wind-over-deck speed” of up to 20 knots. That would provide added lift to the aircraft, allowing higher payloads....

...Similarly, fitting the Tejas Mark-2 with the more powerful General Electric F-414 engine (the current Mark -1 fighter has the smaller F-404 engine) will allow greater payloads and more ambitious mission objectives.

Even more challenging than taking off from a 200-metre carrier deck is to land an aircraft back on the carrier. This requires touching down precisely at the edge of the runway, aligning the approach with the help of an “optical landing system” and a “landing control post”. At landing, an “arresting gear system” --- including wire cables across the deck runway --- latches onto a hook on the fighter’s tail and rapidly decelerates it to a halt.

“In the current campaign, the Tejas did over 60 approaches (without actually touching down) to gather data for fine-tuning the control law software. In the next campaign this month, we will do “touch and go” approaches to validate the software and then graduate to full landings,” explains Balaji.

Finally, the Naval Tejas demonstrated its “fuel jettison” capability --- a safety feature that allows the fighter to quickly jettison on-board fuel if it encounters a problem soon after launch and must quickly return for an emergency landing on the carrier.

“By mid-2017, we will have established on the SBTF that the Naval Tejas can be flown off an actual carrier, and we will then graduate to ship-based testing. We currently have two prototypes in testing, and will build a third by then”, says a satisfied ADA chief."

PHOTO: http://bsmedia.business-standard.com/_m ... 20-043.jpg

Source: http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 050_1.html
Attachments
1462884320-043.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 May 2016, 22:42

Indian Navy's indigenous fighter successfully completes flight tests
17 May 2016 Rahul Bedi

"India's Aeronautical Development Agency has made key progress in the development of the long-delayed naval version of the locally designed Light Combat Aircraft (Navy) or LCA(N), after two prototypes successfully undertook 33 sorties from the Indian Navy's (IN's) shore-based testing facility (SBTF) at INS Hansa in the southwestern state of Goa.

Between 27 March and 25 April two prototypes (NP1 & 2) carrying two Russian Vympel R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') air-to-air missiles each had validated 'ski-jump' trials from the SBTF, which replicates an aircraft carrier deck, according to IN sources.

They said both prototypes - designed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with stronger landing gear than the standard LCA to absorb the additional forces - took flight after rolling 200 m at the facility...."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/60396/indi ... ight-tests
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 May 2016, 23:13

Tejas should serve as the 'lo' in a 'hi-lo' mix for their CAW. It will be interesting to see which platform will constitute the 'hi' capability.
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Unread post19 May 2016, 13:27

"Naval pilots of Russia’s Northern Fleet successfully executed training exercises flying the SU-25 and SU-33 jets off the Admiral Kuznetsov aircraft-cruiser."[/quote]
[/quote]

Thought I read where they opted for Mig-29K, vs SU-33's. I thought that odd, given the SU-33's much more robust range, payload etc.. Is it simply due to the fact the carrier can carry more Mig-29's vs. SU-33's?

Pricepoint? Or something else I'm missing??
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