Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC

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tincansailor

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Unread post19 Aug 2016, 01:17

sferrin wrote:
Siesta wrote:"In Desert Storm many carrier strikes shuttled into and out of bases in SA because we didn't want to risk putting carriers into the PG.


Uhm, wut? We had six carriers in theater almost the entire war. Several in the PG.


It was my understanding that we didn't put any carriers into the PG for the first few weeks of the conflict. I also recall F-14s from Red Sea deployed carriers using SA bases. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.
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sferrin

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Unread post19 Aug 2016, 01:34

tincansailor wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Siesta wrote:"In Desert Storm many carrier strikes shuttled into and out of bases in SA because we didn't want to risk putting carriers into the PG.


Uhm, wut? We had six carriers in theater almost the entire war. Several in the PG.


It was my understanding that we didn't put any carriers into the PG for the first few weeks of the conflict. I also recall F-14s from Red Sea deployed carriers using SA bases. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.


Here's a pretty good rundown:

http://fas.org/man/gao/nsiad98001/a5.htm
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 00:05

Why commit a scarce CVN when a Gator Big Deck does the job?


https://news.usni.org/2016/09/20/amphib ... more-21692

Amphib, Destroyer Pairing Seen In High-End Exercise, Current 6th Fleet Operations

The amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD-1) has not sailed with the rest of its ARG since late July. Instead, it has been paired with destroyer USS Carney (DDG-64) to conduct strikes on Islamic State targets in Sirte, Libya, as part of Operation Odyssey Lightning.

U.S. Africa Command spokeswoman Robyn Mack told USNI News that “the USS Wasp with the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit embarked, and the USS Carney, which replaced the USS The Sullivans, have been supporting U.S. precision airstrikes at the request of [Libya’s Government of National Accord] since Aug. 1. As such, Harriers and Cobras assigned to the USS Wasp have been used to conduct strikes, with the USS Carney providing over watch support.”

A Navy official told USNI News that while AV-8B Harriers from 22nd MEU aboard Wasp have dropped ordnance on these Libyan targets, Carney shot illumination rounds in what is called “disturbance of routine operations.” These shots are fired from the destroyer’s MK 45 5-inch lightweight gun and could not be shot from the amphibious transport dock (LPD) or dock landing ship (LSD) that would typically accompany the big-deck amphib.

Though Mack could not elaborate on the Wasp/Carney pairing due to operational security concerns, Navy photos and news releases show that having Carney support Wasp in U.S. 6th Fleet for these past two months has freed up the rest of the ARG – USS San Antonio (LPD-17) and USS Whidbey Island (LSD-41) – to conduct missions throughout the U.S. 5th Fleet area of operations.

In previous deployments, the LPD might split off into another part of a numbered fleet for split ARG operations or even into another numbered fleet for disaggregated ARG operations. The LSD would be bound to the big-deck, though, to provide support and security for the high-value asset.

In this case, the destroyer brings more firepower than the LSD does, allowing the DDG to not only protect the LHD but also support the strike mission from the sea in a way that another amphibious ship could not.

This pairing freed up Whidbey Island to join San Antonio for patrols of the Gulf of Aden.
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sferrin

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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 01:34

The downside is idiotic politicians and liberals jumping on that and saying, "see, we don't need big expensive nuclear powered death machines".
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 01:50

Do we really want to inject politics into this thread? There's already a Trump thread for that.
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 03:07

Unfortunately, politics is inherent in any conversation about nuclear powered ships. From a purely technical perspective, a nuclear ship saves a lot on logistics over diesel boats, but nucleo-phobic politics jack up the costs, and that has to be considered when judging the merits of either.
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 04:04

count_to_10 wrote:Unfortunately, politics is inherent in any conversation about nuclear powered ships. From a purely technical perspective, a nuclear ship saves a lot on logistics over diesel boats, but nucleo-phobic politics jack up the costs, and that has to be considered when judging the merits of either.


Excellent point. That's the nub of the CV vs. CVN debate. I'd add that you can deploy your ships in drips and drabs when your dealing with a weak enemy like ISIS with no navy. If your fighting someone with an air force, a navy or a level of air defense capability you'd have to concentrate your forces. These two ships were enough to tip the scale in a battle between poorly equipped militia bands, it's not like they won a major war all by themselves. Just because you can use an LPD to take out Somali pirates doesn't mean you could use one to control a sea area being contested by a someone with a real navy.
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 04:54

That article had a profusion of 'possibles' as to what direction the US Navy might pursue. Also a mention of smaller, faster carriers but noticeably absent was mention of the F-35B which one would associate with a smaller carrier.
But have to remember this is the US Navy we're talking about and 'smaller' would still be a nuke for speed, endurance and electrical power generarion capacity. CATOBAR also to cater to SH and C-jets. So how small is small? I don't really expect any dramatic change.
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 06:22

I wish we had Nuclear Powered Fleet in everything that is bigger than a LCS
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Unread post21 Sep 2016, 21:53

KamenRiderBlade wrote:I wish we had Nuclear Powered Fleet in everything that is bigger than a LCS


I used to be enamored with an all nuclear fleet as well. Until looking into the real costs of such ships. Its really expensive in funding, regulatory and environmental costs to build, support, de-fuel and finally dispose of those reactors. I mean there are like 20+ SSN, and a Carrier in the que waiting for funding for disposal now, and the UK is in similar shape.
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Unread post22 Sep 2016, 01:27

sersi wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:I wish we had Nuclear Powered Fleet in everything that is bigger than a LCS


I used to be enamored with an all nuclear fleet as well. Until looking into the real costs of such ships. Its really expensive in funding, regulatory and environmental costs to build, support, de-fuel and finally dispose of those reactors. I mean there are like 20+ SSN, and a Carrier in the que waiting for funding for disposal now, and the UK is in similar shape.

Which comes down to politics.
The KGB really knew what they were doing when they pushed that whole line of US politics.
Last edited by count_to_10 on 22 Sep 2016, 02:19, edited 1 time in total.
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sferrin

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Unread post22 Sep 2016, 01:44

sersi wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:I wish we had Nuclear Powered Fleet in everything that is bigger than a LCS


I used to be enamored with an all nuclear fleet as well. Until looking into the real costs of such ships. Its really expensive in funding, regulatory and environmental costs to build, support, de-fuel and finally dispose of those reactors. I mean there are like 20+ SSN, and a Carrier in the que waiting for funding for disposal now, and the UK is in similar shape.


Most of that cost is due to red tape imposed by an ignorant, easily gulled, political class and their constituents.
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Unread post22 Sep 2016, 01:48

sferrin wrote:
sersi wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:I wish we had Nuclear Powered Fleet in everything that is bigger than a LCS


I used to be enamored with an all nuclear fleet as well. Until looking into the real costs of such ships. Its really expensive in funding, regulatory and environmental costs to build, support, de-fuel and finally dispose of those reactors. I mean there are like 20+ SSN, and a Carrier in the que waiting for funding for disposal now, and the UK is in similar shape.


Most of that cost is due to red tape imposed by an ignorant, easily gulled, political class and their constituents.

I concur, there are too much red tape around nuclear that doesn't make sense.
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Unread post22 Sep 2016, 01:54

The worst byproduct of the Soviet Union... bureaucrats. They exported them to America post-Cold War....
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Unread post22 Sep 2016, 03:04

The Navy is transitioning and positioning for the arrival of F-35Bs in the Gator fleet.

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-aircr ... ing-2016-9

Basically, the US Navy will operate outside of its normal format of carrier strike groups, with surface combatants defending the valuable aircraft carrier and an amphibious ready group, with helicopter carriers and landing craft, being supported by destroyers.

... The Chief of Naval Operations, John Richardson, recently testified to Congress that the demand for US aircraft carriers is way up. Smaller helicopter carriers doing the work of more massive Nimitz class carriers helps to free up those machines and crews, and as new technologies, like the F-35B and C hit the field, the US can maintain its advantage of having a floating, mobile air base anywhere in the world in a few days notice.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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