6 RAAF Supers to Growlers (Fewer F-35s?)

[blindpilot]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Can any one wade through the Boeing speak for me. It seems that they quote, engineless, and radarless F18 E airframe per unit prices, and then compare combat performance of a fully equipped EF-18G with wings laden with separately priced systems.
Unless I am wrong the imbedded F-35 systems are included in the prices. I'm not so sure even the $155M per price is not low if they were all Growlers?

Blind Pilot
(PS. a long time ago I used to fly KC135Q's and those associated missions, and sometimes used to chat with the chicks, as we took the long trip across the pond. )

[blindpilot]

Another note on system prices, based on my humble experiences. The SR-71 had a "price." The support infrastructure for that price did not include a great many things, down to and including, additional MP security, and hangar support, on the ground. We "lugged in a lot of stuff for forward operating locations" etc. etc. A "mission" required about 4-5 KC135 Q's with the associated crews of 4 or 5 each, plus spare crew. The A's couldn't be used as the Q's had lotsa extras. We once were short Q's and I had to fly 165 hours over ten days... "wear and tear," etc.

The price for the SR-71 was considerably understated, which is why it was retired. So when we talk about F-35 vis a vis F-18E/F/G "systems," there are costs, and then there are costs, and apples ain't oranges ...
just saying ...

Blind Pilot

[spazsinbad]

Pinch of salt may be required but here is one recent Oz Newspaper article with 'THE PRICE' as indicated...

Super Hornets considered amid fears about JSF by: Cameron Stewart and Brendan Nicholson
From: The Australian December 13, 2012

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6535732600

"THE Gillard government will consider buying up to 24 new F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter-bombers in a decision that would sharply reduce reliance on the troubled Joint Strike Fighter.

The possible Super Hornet purchase, expected to cost well over $100 million each, is part of a range of multi-billion-dollar air-power options due to be revealed today by Defence Minister Stephen Smith....

...Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute has estimated the cost of an additional 24 Super Hornets at between $2.5bn and $3bn.

Those ordered by the Howard government in 2007 cost over $6bn but that included "through life" expenses and new facilities to house and operate the aircraft."

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/20 ... ornets.jpg

[blindpilot]

So I can't get one of those $55M ones they told the Canadians they had on the shelf ... bummer, that's as much as I had in my wallet. Guess I need to save up...

[maus92]

Ah, the obfuscation continues... try $33.2M each w/o engines, guns and electronics.

[spazsinbad]

Obsfucation - it is a growing industry. Whatever. IF only... Conundrum Industry flourishes in Oz about the WillThey Won'tThey get more Supers. The deadline is always 6 months away until it isn't. But pollies like delay - let someone else make the decision and let them take the blame - or not. No one gives credit for being correct. We expect that ALL THE TIME. Article below is long so I think it is OK to excerpt the beginning paras. However there is a lot of good stuff about pilot reports liking the Super in Oz so don't blame me that the ENTIRE article cannot be cut/pasted here. It is a great OVERVIEW article showing the twists and turns with NO DECISION made but hey I'll find the DefMin quote about 'exhaustive' examinations. This guy can talk under wet cement. He is between the HORNets of a DILEMMA. Maybe we should tag the F-35 the DILemma?

Canberra's fighter conundrum 19 Feb 2013 Greg Waldron

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... um-381903/

"One day before the opening of the Avalon air show in 2011, US Navy Vice Adm Dave Venlet, then-newly appointed executive officer of the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme, gave his first press conference after assuming the role. The notoriously tough Australian defence journalist corps hammered him with questions about development delays and aircraft software releases. Venlet ended the conference forecasting that the F-35 would gain another customer by the end of 2011. This prediction ultimately came true with Tokyo's December 2011 decision to buy 42 F-35As, choosing the stealthy type over the Boeing F-18E/F Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon.

Venlet has since been replaced by US Air Force Lt Gen Christopher Bogdan. Nonetheless, questions about the F-35 will again be paramount at this year's Avalon. Although the F-35 made good progress during flight testing in 2012, concerns about costs and other issues persist.

A little over one year after the last iteration of Avalon, in May 2012, Canberra dealt a blow to the F-35 programme when it decided to reduce costs by ordering just two F-35As and delaying the acquisition of an additional 12 F-35As until 2014-2015. Australian media reports at the time suggested that Canberra hoped for savings of A$1.6 billion ($1.67 billion) from the postponement.

"When we embarked upon the project, we did a couple of very sensible things: firstly, we chose the conventional Joint Strike Fighter, and secondly, we put a fair amount of padding in our cost and in our timetable," said minister for defence Stephen Smith at the time of the announcement. "On the timetable, we have been making sure that we don't end up with a capability gap. We'll make that decision formally by the end of this year in terms of the capability gap, but my current advice is that the life of our 71 F-18 Classic Hornets and our 24 Super Hornets is sufficient for our air combat capability, but we'll make an advised judgement before the end of this year."

The May 2012 announcement marked an abrupt reversal from Canberra's stated intentions in 2009, when it approved the acquisition of the original 14 F-35As for A$3.2 billion (AIR 6000 Phase 2A). The original plans also called for Canberra to place a massive order for 58 aircraft (AIR 6000 Phase 2B) in 2012, followed by a decision on an additional 28 aircraft in 2015. Had this course been followed, Canberra would have committed to 100 F-35As by 2015.

The three planned orders would have set the stage for the Royal Australian Air Force to operate a single fighter type and thus enjoy significant economies of scale in acquisition and long-term sustainment. While inducting this massive fleet of F-35s, Canberra would retire its aging F/A-18 A/B Hornets in 2020, followed by its Super Hornets in 2025.

The May 2012 announcement also said Canberra would "launch a transition plan to assess options to ensure that a gap does not emerge in the RAAF's air combat capability". This foreshadowed a December 2012 letter of request (LOR) to Boeing asking for more information about 24 additional Super Hornets.

"The sending of this LOR does not commit Australia to purchase more Super Hornets," said a department of defence statement. "It is being sent so that the Australian government can consider all options in 2013 with the latest cost and availability information."

This is not the first time Canberra has looked to the Super Hornet to fill a capability gap. Canberra's current fleet of Super Hornets was obtained between March 2010 and October 2011, making it the second user of the type after the US Navy. The Super Hornet purchase was intended as an interim measure to cover the gap between the retirement of the General Dynamics F-111 and the delayed introduction of the F-35A...."

[blindpilot]

Ah, the obfuscation continues... try $33.2M each w/o engines, guns and electronics.

Cool, so I can do that, ...
and get an old J79 from Davis Mon, (which according to 1965 data used just pennies for $.25 a gallon gas) and an old SUU 16 pod, (proven reliable!) pull some analog stuff on... I can do this !!!!

And there was some gun footage of my J79 SH shootin down a Flanker on youtube ! (wait a minute.. can't afford the hud never mind ... ) Equal to anything else out there!! Boeing is right! They are cheaper!!!
/sarcasm off.

Blind Pilot

[neurotech]

So I can't get one of those $55M ones they told the Canadians they had on the shelf ... bummer, that's as much as I had in my wallet. Guess I need to save up...

There is the possibility that Boeing re-acquire certain Block I USN jets, refurb them and sell them cheap to the Canadians, while the USN gets discounted Block II/III jets. I've heard the option is being considered by the USN/DoD, but nothing announced before an official request for the Block Is, and the budget for the USN to replace them is confirmed.

[maus92]

There is the possibility that Boeing re-acquire certain Block I USN jets, refurb them and sell them cheap to the Canadians, while the USN gets discounted Block II/III jets. I've heard the option is being considered by the USN/DoD, but nothing announced before an official request for the Block Is, and the budget for the USN to replace them is confirmed.

Is this idea meant to be an interim or permanent solution? Would a rework return them to 8000 hours? Block I implies no AESA unless we're talking major refurbishment, right?

[neurotech]

There is the possibility that Boeing re-acquire certain Block I USN jets, refurb them and sell them cheap to the Canadians, while the USN gets discounted Block II/III jets. I've heard the option is being considered by the USN/DoD, but nothing announced before an official request for the Block Is, and the budget for the USN to replace them is confirmed.

Is this idea meant to be an interim or permanent solution? Would a rework return them to 8000 hours? Block I implies no AESA unless we're talking major refurbishment, right?

It would be a somewhat interim solution. Obviously, brand new would be preferred if they want to keep them until 2030+ so this could actually be a lease deal.

Some of the F/A-18E/F Block I jets got AESA upgrades and other avionics updates, with the parts going into F/A-18A+/B+/C/D jets, but not all the structural changes for Block II.

Apparently, the reasoning is that some of the early F/A-18E/F jets have a surprisingly high number of traps and higher than expected airframe fatigue. Its easier and less expensive to refurbish those jets for land-based use, than extend their life for use on a carrier. Not all the Block I jets are assigned to a training squadrons, and there are quite a few early Block I jets in the combat fleet.

There is also the politics of a win-win for Boeing (selling more jets, which they are lobbying for), USN (new jets) and RCAF (cheaper jets).

[spazsinbad]

Down the track some dozen or perhaps more (if more are bought sometime soon) Supers will become available for the USN (no cats or traps on the RAAF aircraft).

[neurotech]

Down the track some dozen or perhaps more (if more are bought sometime soon) Supers will become available for the USN (no cats or traps on the RAAF aircraft).

The RAAF claim they'll send them back, but I'll believe that when I see it.

I don't think the RAAF will give up their EA-18s or F/A-18Fs unless something better comes along, like the F/A-XX. The F-35 is a great jet and will have its roles, but isn't designed to be a F-15 replacement. I realize the F-22 has a limited internal range, but it is a bigger jet than the F-35. The F-15 can carry more weapons and fuel, for longer than a F-35 or F/A-18F. The F-15 is a relatively expensive jet to fly, too.

Remember that there was a time when the RAAF were quite dismissive of the F/A-18Fs, when Boeing brought them out to Australia. Times have changed.

[spazsinbad]

The Growlers were not mentioned because I think it has become clear that they will be retained now (12 Supers upgraded to Growler status). Where does the F-15 fit?

[neurotech]

The Growlers were not mentioned because I think it has become clear that they will be retained now (12 Supers upgraded to Growler status). Where does the F-15 fit?

The F-111 was not a lightweight fighter, it was a long-range strike aircraft. The F-15C is the USAFs main long-range fighter aircraft, with the F-22 complementing them, but not replacing the F-15Cs, and the F-15E is the closest in the strike role to the F-111. The F-35 isn't a long-range strike aircraft, nor is the F/A-18F.

I don't think the RAAF will replace the F/A-18F "strike" wings with more F-35s, but will wait for something better, such as the F/A-XX.

[gtx]

I don't think the RAAF will replace the F/A-18F "strike" wings with more F-35s, but will wait for something better, such as the F/A-XX.

What sort of timeframe are you talking about here? If in the next 20yrs it will be more F-35s. If out further then you might have other options such as UCAS though I strongly doubt it will involve some mythical manned F/A-XX.