Thunderbird F-16 down near Colorado Springs

outlaw162 · by **outlaw162** » 05 Nov 2016, 20:38

You sound mildly skeptical.

Gums · by **Gums** » 06 Nov 2016, 01:56

Salute!

I agree with Outlaw, Gator.

You definitely know if the burner ain't cooking in that plane despite the smooth light. And the newer motors ( 1970+) prolly do not spew raw gas in the open nozzles unless the burner is burning, huh?

OTOH, the motor Outlaw showed could definitely be tricked by moving outboard and then inboard and outboard real fast so's the fuel control sprayed the gas but it would not light because the small "plunger" had not enuf time to re-fill and spray onto the hot turbine at the back of the J-57. That J-57 was like the J-75 and had the "hard light". So outboard, then nozzles open, fuel sprayed on the turbine and BOOM!!!
+++++++++++
We will all know what happened once Bronco is not the POTUS. I believe the folks at Pete FIeld that said the Secret Service was holding the 'birds, and then lead said "we're landing".

Gums sends...

jbgator · by **jbgator** » 06 Nov 2016, 14:56

Gums I was not referring to his J-57 story. I was commenting on his "unconfirmed, unofficial, off-the-wall..." rumor about the T-bird jets having a pinkie switch to light the AB. Maybe he was joking, maybe not, but that kind of stuff seems to get legs and the next thing you know people are talking about how we lost a jet because of an off-the-wall modification. So I felt compelled to mention the F-100/PW-200/220/229 burner lights real easy with the throttle and there is no need for a "pinkie switch" to do that.

Gums · by **Gums** » 06 Nov 2016, 15:15

Salute!

NP, Gator.

I completely agree with you and Outlaw ( the old fart that got to fly the J57 as I did as a yute). My grammar "comma doofer" just put something where an "and" was supposed to be.

Gums sends...

zaltys · by **zaltys** » 06 Nov 2016, 16:50

Gums wrote:Salute!

@zalt,

Methinks the dmage is more related to a combo of bypass air and motor RPM and not the aircraft speed. Additionally, the fans blow debris out into the bypass duct and crap doesn't go down later compressor disks or the turbine disks ( depending on motor).

We had a super seagull ingestion at Myrtle Beach in the A-7D TF-41 just at liftoff. Not too much damage as most of the birds all flew out and down the bypass duct. Heh heh, some were stuck back there outside the turbine section and were roasing - BBQ Jonathan Livingston, anyone?

Pilot knew what happened ( like Sully) as there were many birds and some birds impaled on the pylon leading edges. Coughing motor and all he did a 180 and got the jet back on the ground.

OTOH, we lost a Viper at Hill when encountering a 40 pound pelican over the lake. Sucker broke off most of the radome plus the AoA vanes and covered canopy with blood. Pilot flew on gauges for maybe 5 or 6 minutes and FLCS gradually degraded and he punched.

Those birds can be a real problem, but not as much as a SU-24-4 or SA-13 or, or, or.

Gums sends...

Thanks, Gums! Never thought of that difference between high and low by-pass engines. That's really interesting. Concerning problems with birds or SAMs/AAA it depends on what you see more often.

outlaw162 · by **outlaw162** » 06 Nov 2016, 22:53

JB,

Just for info, said e-mail didn't appear to be sent in a jocular manner. Came from an ex-zoomie, ex-Misty, ex-a bunch of respectable things, whom Gums also knows. Info was attributed to an ex-T-bird who also referred to special switch which the F-4 was equipped with for the same purpose. Never heard of it myself and I've got a few hours in the Phantom. Do I know anything factual beyond the fact that an accident obviously occurred?

Of course not, I'm just the piano player, but I'd much rather believe that an experienced fighter-pilot was done in by an approved TCTO than by letting himself be run out of gas in the interest of decorum. No matter, it is whatever it is.

BTW #1: the Brit F-4s with the afterburning turbofan Speys were equipped with a 'quick light' AB, so we're not talking some sort of improbable sparkle smoke gizmo.

BTW #2: I worked with an ex-zoomie football player up in OKC, initials SS, who flew with you down south and spoke highly of your talent.

BTW #3: What I was hoping would show up in the J-57 pic (and didn't) was that that front sections of the compressor were still there, damaged only by crash impact. The failure was in the 6th stage and took out a few stages forward before it cleaned the rearward blades off of the rest of the spool. Not a bird, not ice, but attributed ultimately to overhaul quality control. ANG had three of these in about 8 months, nicely distributed amongst Ohio, Missouri & Indiana.....all overhauled by the same folks.

BTW #4: I don't actually care what happened at COS.

(I was just having a slow day)

Gums · by **Gums** » 06 Nov 2016, 23:34

Salute!

Nice words, Outlaw.

The thing about the old motors was they were not fans. Also, like the J57, the compressor section was two-stage and not some linear straight thru doofer to the combustion chambers.

The TF-41 sounded like the motors on a C-141 when we pushed up for takeoff or a go-around. Gotta tellya, it was strange. And we had a better bypass ratio than the TF-30 and TF-33 on the 'vaark and Navy A-7A/B/C

New folks here must look back at the motor development in the 70's and then the 80's. Seems to me that it was much more rapid than in the 60's when I grew up.

Bottomline is we shall see some good stuff from the accident board once Bronco is gone.

I still have problems with 600 pounds of gas found in the wreckage. So a trapped fuel problem or a basic motor problem seems to be the most probable causes.

Gums opines....

jbgator · by **jbgator** » 07 Nov 2016, 02:03

Fair enough Outlaw. I guess I am jaded by some of the rumored causes that have gained a life far beyond the real cause. Internal to the community talk should stay there because it gets credibility long after the official answer is known because people outside the community do not have he filtering capacity, nor do they care, to separate truth from urban legend.

Being privy to many AIB/SIB reports in my later years I often marveled at the real cause versus the conjecture. And by that I mean within the AF community conjecture. When I see former AF folks being talking heads on national networks speculating about what happened I cringe. Thankfully this one has had low visibility since.

If Gums' info is correct I doubt it will change any procedures, SS are gods in control of all they see. But I wouldn't blame them either as I suspect they are following a checklist....xxx mins to departure, shut down all inbound/outbound traffic. Hopefully they will review that, if it is the case, and maybe change their protocol.

In the cases where I have not seen the AIB/SIB report I tend to wait and see.

I salute you and Gums for riding J-57s. Kids today don't even understand the challenges of the F-100/PW200. Most don't know what you're talking about when you say BUC (they also don't know FCNP, REO, or AIM-9P). The motor came a long way from the PW100 to where it is today. Didn't know the J-57 but the J-79 was a great motor for a turbojet and my 168 hours in the Phantom were motor-problem free (thankfully as a Viper baby flying the F-4 was a challenge, as I found recently trying to check out in a Stearman). I have flown with many F-100 and F-105 folks and heard their stories. I sat in the mobile at Incirlik watching Turkish F-100s take off and many times I saw the burner light about 50 feet behind the jet and work its way up into the tailpipe....Boom, shake, rattle. Turks seemed to think nothing of it. Their jets had two different types of nozzles but I never saw any particular difference between the two. Talking to their pilots looking at a Hun was interesting as I guess there were many things in the jets that did not work. "She no work" often being the response to my questions about what something was. I patted the ejection seat and asked "she work?" at which point he leaned back, looked at the tail number, and said "yes, she work..."

dockrat · by **dockrat** » 07 Nov 2016, 03:12

This post has gotten so far in the weeds...

desertdog · by **desertdog** » 08 Nov 2016, 00:24

The only "pinky switch" related to the throttle I know is the "cutoff release" that allows throttle rotation required to go below idle and to cutoff.....