Electronic Warfare: East vs West

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wrightwing

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 06:25

boogieman wrote:Yes I suppose the intuitive downside to using so many electronic attack systems is that they must all emit RF energy in some form to do their job, which is not conducive to concealment. It would be interesting to know how well a missile like AARGM-ER would fare when targeting something like a Krasukha system. Could the Krasukha perform some EW sorcery and soft kill the inbound missile(s)? Probably impossible to know. Its role seems to be oriented toward the protection of high value targets so you'd also have to expect that it would be operating under the protection of something like S400, with hard kill options available too.


It's not likely that a soft or hard kill would be achieved vs AARGM-ER. Not only does it have redundant active and passive guidance, 2 way datalinks, low observabiilty, and high speed, but various survival aids and agility. It would also likely keep a lot of emitters in standby mode.
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boogieman

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 06:32

wrightwing wrote:It's not likely that a soft or hard kill would be achieved vs AARGM-ER. Not only does it have redundant active and passive guidance, 2 way datalinks, low observabiilty, and high speed, but various survival aids and agility. It would also likely keep a lot of emitters in standby mode.

Yes it strikes me as an incredibly impressive SEAD/DEAD weapon. What do you mean by "survival aids" by the way? And by agility I am assuming you may be referring to defensive terminal maneuvering to evade point defences (?).
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knowan

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 08:36

boogieman wrote:What do you mean by "survival aids" by the way?


Good question, it makes me think of pen aids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_aid
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boogieman

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 10:41

knowan wrote:
boogieman wrote:What do you mean by "survival aids" by the way?


Good question, it makes me think of pen aids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penetration_aid

Me too, although it's something I've always associated with ICBMs and very large Soviet AShMs - not smaller anti-radiation missiles. Hence why I am intrigued...
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wrightwing

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 19:50

boogieman wrote:
wrightwing wrote:It's not likely that a soft or hard kill would be achieved vs AARGM-ER. Not only does it have redundant active and passive guidance, 2 way datalinks, low observabiilty, and high speed, but various survival aids and agility. It would also likely keep a lot of emitters in standby mode.

Yes it strikes me as an incredibly impressive SEAD/DEAD weapon. What do you mean by "survival aids" by the way? And by agility I am assuming you may be referring to defensive terminal maneuvering to evade point defences (?).

Terminal maneuvers would be one of the means, of increasing survivability. It very likely incorporates techniques like LRASM, as well. When those are combined with low observabiilty, cooperative jamming, and high speed, it likely has a high probability of penetrating terminal defenses.
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boogieman

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Unread post02 Apr 2020, 22:40

wrightwing wrote:
boogieman wrote:
wrightwing wrote:It's not likely that a soft or hard kill would be achieved vs AARGM-ER. Not only does it have redundant active and passive guidance, 2 way datalinks, low observabiilty, and high speed, but various survival aids and agility. It would also likely keep a lot of emitters in standby mode.

Yes it strikes me as an incredibly impressive SEAD/DEAD weapon. What do you mean by "survival aids" by the way? And by agility I am assuming you may be referring to defensive terminal maneuvering to evade point defences (?).

Terminal maneuvers would be one of the means, of increasing survivability. It very likely incorporates techniques like LRASM, as well. When those are combined with low observabiilty, cooperative jamming, and high speed, it likely has a high probability of penetrating terminal defenses.

That is interesting. When AGM88G first came to light I assumed a high speed weapon that would use it passive seeker to home in on a given emitter, following a simple parabolic trajectory until its terminal approach where it would activate its MMW seeker to pinpoint and kill the target vehicle. I think you are right to point out that this may not have been a safe assumption, and that the weapon may well have other tricks up its sleeve to increase the probability of IADS penetration. That is its job after all...
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wrightwing

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Unread post03 Apr 2020, 01:09

boogieman wrote:


That is interesting. When AGM88G first came to light I assumed a high speed weapon that would use it passive seeker to home in on a given emitter, following a simple parabolic trajectory until its terminal approach where it would activate its MMW seeker to pinpoint and kill the target vehicle. I think you are right to point out that this may not have been a safe assumption, and that the weapon may well have other tricks up its sleeve to increase the probability of IADS penetration. That is its job after all...

We're well beyond parabolic trajectories. Even the Shrike used to do that. The AARGM uses ARH/MMW/GPS/INS/2 way datalink, among other navigation and targeting techniques. Like I said previously, it very likely incorporates ESM and real time route changes, as well as exploitation of radar sidelobes, etc... to aid in penetration.
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Unread post03 Apr 2020, 01:35

wrightwing wrote:We're well beyond parabolic trajectories. Even the Shrike used to do that. The AARGM uses ARH/MMW/GPS/INS/2 way datalink, among other navigation and targeting techniques. Like I said previously, it very likely incorporates ESM and real time route changes, as well as exploitation of radar sidelobes, etc... to aid in penetration.

...and that is before the USAF turn it into SiAW. What I would give to be able to lug a few on my DCS Hornet - would certainly give those virtual S300 batteries something to think about :wink: 8).

On a more serious note I think this is where VLO once again becomes an important advantage. Being able to fire at closer range ought to give F35s a better chance of exploiting enemy sidelobe radiation, while shortening available reaction time in the process.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post03 Apr 2020, 16:44

DCS SA-10 site can't target you if you are under 75 ft or so.
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boogieman

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Unread post03 Apr 2020, 23:17

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:DCS SA-10 site can't target you if you are under 75 ft or so.

Yeah true. A lot of the radar guided missiles struggle with a target that low in DCS. Still, if it catches you at higher altitude the thing is a monster. The saving grace being that DCS AI almost always start shooting at you from Rmax, so you can just turn and run.

Taking an SA10 out can be pretty tough since flying low handicaps the range of your own weapons. I really hope they model EW more thoroughly to give SEAD assets more options.
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Unread post04 Apr 2020, 01:38

Oh yeah, flying at 20,000+ inside 40nm is a death sentence. I generally tried to lob HARM from 40nm but now I prefer NOE ingress and iron bombs, which only works if there is no short range system in play.
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boogieman

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Unread post04 Apr 2020, 02:21

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Oh yeah, flying at 20,000+ inside 40nm is a death sentence. I generally tried to lob HARM from 40nm but now I prefer NOE ingress and iron bombs, which only works if there is no short range system in play.

Yeah same for me - if there is a Tunguska/Tor/Strela guarding the site you are basically screwed. It's a little odd how the SAM vs target RCS system works at the moment. Point defence systems ignore regular non-LO gravity bombs but light up an LO JSOW like it's Christmas. They really need to rework it IMO but all in good time...
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eloise

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Unread post04 Apr 2020, 07:50

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Oh yeah, flying at 20,000+ inside 40nm is a death sentence. I generally tried to lob HARM from 40nm but now I prefer NOE ingress and iron bombs, which only works if there is no short range system in play.

This is why I think Spear is one of the best A2G weapon for F-35, it isn't altitude dependent like SDB and can be carried in great number
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post04 Apr 2020, 16:10

Oh yeah, the Brit Bees are going to be monsters.
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Unread post06 Apr 2020, 08:06

Touting inter-operability, any reason why A and C can't use Spear 2?
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