Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Actually Thumper historians agree that if the French hadn't gotten involved that war would have ended in victory anyways the french expedited that effort. Also they showed up at the end we fought the war without them relying on our own strength in fact it took three seperate attempts to get them involved. Don't talk history to me i've studied it.

You also are bringing economics into the equation. If you hadn't noticed I would be more concerned about where the normal American is buying their products from not where the engine of our fighter is produced. If some one produces a superior engine at a different cost why not...you forget we stuck a Rolls Royce engine in the P-51 Mustang...umm last time I checked Rollys Royce isn't an American company. No what you want is an America that locks itself out that isn't open to anything or anyone.

If you forget we bought the original Harrier from the UK the whole idea was theirs not ours. If they hadn't shared that VTOL tech would be what it was 50 years ago rough ideas. You don't want that though we should take all our cards and hold them so tightly that the world has to work its way up the line to compete with us. I'm not saying lets give Iran an F-15E or something like that...sometimes stupidity is a big problem, but if you can't trust a country who followed ours into war...then...you are more paranoid than people actually need.

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Active Member Joined: Aug 28, 2006 - 05:58 AM Posts: 191

The French are the French. They will never give up on the Rafale. Even if they are the only ones to ever buy it nothing will change their minds. Over time they will upgrade the radar, missiles and engines to keep pace. They believe it's a substantial upgrade to the 2000-5. It wasn't that long ago the USAF admitted the 2000-5 was equal or better than the F-15 in recent exercises to justify the F-22 to Congress. It's likely a shade below the Typhoon, but above the Gripen and 2000-5. Further, France has nobody to fight, secondly, IF the next world crisis occurs and IF the French decide to participate, I think we'd be very happy to have the Rafale along. Say what you want, it's still a very capable airplane.

Also there's discussion in Britain that if the F-35 doesn't meet the design goals, then the Rafale will be seriously considered for their upcoming new class of carriers since it's carrier capable and the Typhoon is not.

As Thumper and others have said the Rafale is a good platform and does what it was intended to do. How could anyone, French or foreign justify cancelling it now? Regardless of budget and other problems its a French aircraft, built and designed by the French meaning that there are more jobs for France's economy and that the current French engineers working on the aircraft gain experience from the program. Another important factor is that they have 100% control over the design, operation and modification of the aircraft which means they don't have to go through any foreign Governments or airforces.

As I have said I dont want to speak anymore about politics, I didn't bring politics into this as my friend Thumper has said below:

Thumper3181 wrote:

For the record it was speaker of truth who brought up politics.

Well anyone who can read will see this post was in this thread before I even posted on here.

Thumper3181 wrote:

The UK you remember is no longer. Read the Guardian lately? Have you visited the BBC website? Hell just the other day one of the "good" brits (Melanie Philips) wrote a piece in USA Today lamenting the turn for the worse our relations have taken. she should have published in the Guardian. Please read it.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 15.art.htm

Would you trust George Galloway? Would you trust some of the more militant back benchers in their government?

The point is times change.Allies change. Maybe the UK still is that stalwart ally you remember. Maybe it is not.

I am an engineer who is old enough to have seen the pendulum swing.

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

As Thumper and others have said the Rafale is a good platform and does what it was intended to do. How could anyone, French or foreign justify cancelling it now? Regardless of budget and other problems its a French aircraft, built and designed by the French meaning that there are more jobs for France's economy and that the current French engineers working on the aircraft gain experience from the program. Another important factor is that they have 100% control over the design, operation and modification of the aircraft which means they don't have to go through any foreign Governments or airforces.

As I have said I dont want to speak anymore about politics, I didn't bring politics into this as my friend Thumper has said below:

Thumper3181 wrote:

For the record it was speaker of truth who brought up politics.

Well anyone who can read will see this post was in this thread before I even posted on here.

Thumper3181 wrote:

The UK you remember is no longer. Read the Guardian lately? Have you visited the BBC website? Hell just the other day one of the "good" brits (Melanie Philips) wrote a piece in USA Today lamenting the turn for the worse our relations have taken. she should have published in the Guardian. Please read it.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 15.art.htm

Would you trust George Galloway? Would you trust some of the more militant back benchers in their government?

The point is times change.Allies change. Maybe the UK still is that stalwart ally you remember. Maybe it is not.

I am an engineer who is old enough to have seen the pendulum swing.

Rafael sounds a lot like the 22 in regards to cost over-runs. I for one think the Rafael is a sexy bird and almost certainly a formadable aircraft to contend with (despite it being French!!!). Our JSF should be more like the Rafael and less like the fat ostrich it has turned into.

If there is any country that is more commited to, "not invented here" it is France! Whatever the Rafale's problems the Rafale will remain in production.

Adrian

FireFox137 wrote:

Rafael sounds a lot like the 22 in regards to cost over-runs. I for one think the Rafael is a sexy bird and almost certainly a formadable aircraft to contend with (despite it being French!!!). Our JSF should be more like the Rafael and less like the fat ostrich it has turned into.

The F-22A works as advertised.... the Rafale does not.

Who says Rafale is "obsolete", "fails to be even up to the export F-16," (BTW is has consistently beaten the falcon in exercises) or "that its radar is sub par", has no clue what hes talking about.

The rafale isnt stealthy as the F-35 but then the only other stealth figher is the F-22. In every other field the Rafale can hold on its own quite well. The more I read about it the more I like the jet.

When I ask pilots what they think about most of the stuff they read on the forums they say 90% of the times is utter Biased trash because people pick on an aircraft due to prejudices without any fundament than their own baseless convictions.

The french have a very compentent fighter industry and I doubt this thought of F-35's will ever cross their minds due to political reasons.

The rafale will feture AESA radar and Meteor, and will be an excelent plane in europes arsenal leaving most the rest of the world trying to catch up for a fighter of that class.

Rafale is expensive thats a fact, but so was the Mirage 2000 and I dont have to remind you guys how back in mid 80's every "expert" was comming forward with coments that it was already obsolete by the time of service entry, when to this day many still spend endless time debating if its better than the F-16 or not.

Did you know the Rafale cant use carry laser-designation pods yet? That it cant fire ASMs? That is OSF system is incomplete? Or that it doesnt have Link-16?

The Rafale is an airplane full of holes filled by lies. The plane is unfinished and has a crappy radar. No stealth. Nothing.

In faceoffs against SuperHornets, the Rafales were beaten miserably. Holding their own only in DACT WVR scenarios. But when both sides have HOBS Heaters, it doesnt matter.

skrip00: some facts

1) the rafale F2 has link 16 (it now represent the vast majority of refale currently in service)

2 ) Damocles laser designation pod will be integrated next year. The AdA wants the rafale F2 in Afganistan next automn. It could have been integrated a lot sooner but it wasn't needed very rapidly since most other Ada aicrafts can drop laser guided bombs. Besides the rafale F2 has ASSM (GPS/INS). ( Can the F22 use a laser designation pod?)

3) OSF is the most comprehensive integrated optonic device in the world for a jet fighter. Far more comprhensive than an simple IRST. the next improvment is already funded.

4) the rafale will be able to fire exocet block 3 missiles in 2008 with the F3 standart.

5) The DGA (french MOD) has funded the next improvments (400M € at the end of october): new rbe2 AESA radar, the OSF nextgen, and a new missile warning receiver. it will be ready in 2012 for the 120th raflale. Note that the new radar will be a generation ahead the F22 and the same generation as the F35's radar.

6) According to french navy pilots from the 16f the rafale F1(! )has defeated all the teen fighter in wvr ans bvr, including the Superhornet in wvr during "opération Héracles". against the superbug when the rafaleM F1 will be rerfied to the larest standart in 2008 with link 16 and finnaly meteor it will not stand a chance in bvr.

7) The rafale came first for the "open competition" for the technical and operational assesment. (South korea and Singapore before the F15 and the Typhoon and second to the F35 but with an extremly small margin for the dutch evaluation but very far ahead the typhoon)

Cool

rafale is one of the very rare major programme which is not under critic in france. The Assembly and the senate now praise this programme. The cost increased of only 4% for all the time of the programme which is quite a performance when you look at other programmes. Paradoxically the report states that it would have costed more if france was commited in th EF programm and that rafale is more suited to post-cold war conflicts with the emphasis on multirole capacities.

Cool

why is the radar is crappy? it works in LPI modes can work in AtA and AtG modes simultaneously and is less prone to jamming than any mecanichal radars due to the agility of the beam and the facts it works in LPI. It will soon have a SAR mode with the ability of tracking ground mooving targets while engaging other aircrafts. yes it has a penalty in range but with the link 16 it is not a problem. Moreover The AESA radar is funded and schedulde for 2012. All the other rafales will be retrofied. The asset of a PESA is that you can keep the same algorithms so fitting an AESA antenna is just plug and play. For the first trials it took about one hour to change the antenna. So this upgrade is relatively cheap. You don't need to fashion a brand new radar.

9) Your willingness to bash the rafale is quite obsessive and suspect. Anti french i guess? I personnaly have nothing against any nations. I lived four years in the states ( 2 years in Seattle and two years in Dallas when i was young) and i like this country. I am very sad to see this kind of behaviour on both sides.

here are some extract of some articles:

about price

French officials are also at pains to stress that Rafale, despite its quantum leap in capabilities, remains much more affordable than competing aircraft. DGA’s Dufour says that the total cost of the 294-aircraft program, including development, pre-production, production and integrated logistical support, amounts to 33,273 million euros (inclusive of value-added tax) at 2003 prices. This is an increase of just 4.18 percent, or 1,336 million euros, over the projected cost in 1988, when the original contract was signed. Competing combat aircraft cost at least one-third more, reinforcing Dassault’s belief that the Rafale will eventually score highly on the export market.

about stealth

The requirement for stealth led to redesigning the fuselage, which produced the Rafale's present characteristic shape. A single air intake was split into two side-mounted intakes that were carefully shaped to prevent an enemy's radar from observing Rafale from the front hemisphere by getting returns off the moving parts of compressors. The vertical fin was made of electromagnetic (EM)- transparent composites. The RAMs initially used caused the black color of the Rafale C prototype, but special EM-transparent paints were later developed so the aircraft could receive any color scheme. All of those undertakings dramatically reduced the radar cross-section (RCS) of the Rafale, especially from the front. It is very difficult to assess the Rafale's RCS due to the high level of classification, but sources have unofficially said that Rafale has a much lower RCS than the Typhoon, a fighter of roughly the same size

about the radar

The RBE2 radar had been in development since 1989. It was decided that the radar would receive a new phased-array antenna with full electronic scan, instead of the electro-mechanical scan employed by the Eurofighter Typhoon's Captor radar. Initially, the radar received a passive phased-array antenna, but ultimately an active electronically scanned array (AESA) will be fitted. According to French Ministry of Defense (MoD) sources, the RBE2 radar has a modest range about 100 km against fighter aircraft, but it operates in a low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) mode and is resistant to deception jamming. The Typhoon's Captor has a range of 160 km against fighters but is considered more prone to jamming and can track fewer targets. The French Air Force accepted the penalty in range reduction for the benefits of LPI and other characteristics. Moreover, in network-centric operations, a common air picture will be transmitted via the Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) to the Rafale, enabling the aircraft to make use of off-board sensors.

According to Thales, the radar operates in the X band and can use low, medium, and high pulse-repetition frequencies. It can track up to 40 air targets in track-while-scan mode and, according to an unofficial source, can engage up to eight of them with missiles launched in short intervals. Normally up to six (five on the naval Rafale M) MBDA (Paris, France) MICA EM missiles can be carried. An unusual feature of the infrared-seeking MICA IR version is that the missile can receive mid-course update commands from the radar to compare the target location with the location of its seeker's track or for lock-after-launch engagements. The effective range of both the infrared- and radar-homing missile versions, therefore, reaches 70 km. Electronic beam steering enables the RBE2 radar to search the airspace in various patterns, probably up to 60 degrees in any direction from the fixed antenna axis. The radar enables not only track while scan but also so-called "track here while scan there." For example, the RBE2 can readily track airborne targets while searching for another airborne target in another sector. The radar performs automatic prioritization of threat targets and has the ability to discriminate a single aircraft in a group in raid-assessment mode. The F1 standard radar has no air-to-ground functions.

The Rafale's RBE2 radar has a modest range of about 100 km against fighter aircraft, but it operates in a low-probability-of-intercept (LPI) mode and is resistant to deception jamming. The French Air Force accepted the penalty in range reduction for the benefits of LPI and other characteristics. Moreover, in network-centric operations, a common air picture will be transmitted via the Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) to the Rafale, enabling the aircraft to make use of off-board sensors. This Rafale B carries an assortment of MICA EM (inboard) and Magic-2 (outboard) air-to-air missiles.

The AESA radar is not being incorporated into the F3 standard. The development of the AESA version of the RBE2 radar started officially in April 2002, when the DGA awarded Thales a contract for development of an active-array radar demonstrator optimized for the Rafale. Called the Démonstrateur Radar à Antenne Active (DRAA; Active Array Radar Demonstrator), the program culminated in a series of demanding flight tests to validate the system's detection performance. In December 2002, the first flight of the AESA system was carried out in a Mystere XX flying testbed belonging to the French MoD and located at the Flight Test Center at Cazaux. Subsequently, the DRAA was fitted to the two-seat production Rafale B301, which flew with it for the first time in May 2003. The next step is now the Démonstrateur Radar à Antenne Active Modes Avancés (DRAAMA; Advanced Modes Active Array Radar Demonstrator) program, which was officially launched by the DGA in July 2004. The DRAAMA will be entirely new and will benefit from the latest developments in radar and solid-state technology. It is possible that the AESA radar will be introduced with the F4 standard and/or will form an upgrade package for earlier aircraft.

about link 16

Under the F2 standard, the Rafale's avionics were integrated with the MIDS tactical information-distribution system, working in the Link 16 format. Aircraft are fitted with the MIDS Low Volume Terminal (MIDS-LVT), developed by the EuroMIDS consortium, which consists of Thales (Colombes, France), Marconi Selenia Communications (Rome, Italy), Indra Sistemas (Madrid, Spain), and EADS Deutschland GmbH Defense and Security Systems Division (Unterschleissheim, Germany). The MIDS-LVT provides Link 16 for real-time tri-service tactical information exchanges with command centers, airborne early-warning aircraft, warships, and other fighters. The MIDS-LVT also provides two additional secure voice channels. The system enables the creation of a common recognized tactical picture. Now the picture obtained from Air Force E-3F AWACS and Navy E-2C Hawkeye aircraft can be distributed in real time among the Rafale fleet. Also, the aircraft can exchange pictures seen by onboard radars, as well as imagery from the Damocles pod (see below). One of the most interesting features of the MIDS is the ability to share data from the Spectra electronic-warfare (EW) system in real time, fusing it into a common recognized EW-situation picture.

about AASM

AASM: the European JDAM

Among the new weapons that are to be integrated beginning with the Rafale F2 standard, one of the most interesting is the AASM, developed by Sagem. This is a conversion kit for 500-lb.-class bombs, such as the Mk82 general-purpose, BLU-111 cluster, and CBEMS/Bang penetration bombs. The guidance section includes an INS and GPS receiver enabling 10-meter accuracy in any weather. The whole modernization kit is extremely cheap , which enables air forces to use this type of weapon en mass to achieve high-destructive effects in a very short time. The bombs are also equipped with folded wings, which enable a glide range of 15 km when dropped from low altitude or 50 km when dropped from medium to high altitudes. Another interesting feature is that the guidance processor enables the pilot or weapons officer to select the angle at which the bomb impacts the target.

Additionally, for contingency-type operations, the guidance section can include not only the INS/GPS for aiming at a pre-selected point, but also an imaging-IR (IIR) seeker. Use of the IIR seeker restricts attacks to a single target per "drop," while INS/GPS mode only enables every bomb to be aimed at a different target and dropped simultaneously. The Rafale can carry up to six AASM bombs on two triple racks under the wings

about passive sensors

One of the more challenging aspects of Rafale operations is how to fully exploit its capabilities, and especially its range of passive sensors. Pilots, for example, can use its TV/thermal imaging observation system (dubbed Optronique Secteur Frontal, and similar in principle to infrared scan and track) to visually identify other aircraft at ranges of more than 50 kilometres (approx. 30 nautical miles), and transmit this and other tactical data to other aircraft using their MIDS datalink.

Another unique capability, according to Col. François Moussez, the French Air force’s Rafale program officer is that it can fire missiles at targets detected and designated by its integrated Spectra countermeasures suite, again without any need for active transmissions that can give away its position.

Remarkably, Rafale will continue to offer capabilities in advance of its competitors thanks to an upgrade policy adopted by the French defence ministry. This ensures that in-service aircraft are upgraded as new capabilities are cleared, so that the entire fleet is always maintained at the latest available standard.

Last edited by toan on Dec 03, 2006 - 05:46 AM; edited 2 times in total

1. In the end of 2006, the French AF has gotten 14~15 Rafale B/C (F2 type), while French Navy has gotten 12 Rafale M (10 F1 type and 2 F2 type).

2. The Rafale of F2-type has equipped Link-16, FSO & Spectra EWS with full capability and complete function, and the capability of using SCALP-EG CM and AASM (a rocket-powered PGM guided by GPS + IIR) right now.

3. All F1 type Rafale M will be upgraded to F2 type before the end of next year.

4. Rafale F2 has finished the fly tests for LGB-mission. However, French AF and French Navy has enough Mirage 2000-N/D and Super Etendard for this kind of mission right now. Therefore, for France, Rafale won't share this workload formally before the retirement of Super Etendard in 2008.

5. For the similar reason mentioned above, Rafale M won't do the job of ASM formally before 2008, although the relative test has begun since the end of last year.

6. As for the RCS of Rafale:

a. It is not the stealthy fighter of F-22/F-35 class, but it is said that its frontal RCS is small enough to let Rafale use its "crappy" RBE-2 + MICA or FSO + Spectra + MICA IIR to attack FAF's Mirage 2000-5 at the BVR range that Mirage can't find the existence of Rafale during the test.

b. As for the comparison with EF-2000......well, both of their manufacturers have declared that each of their own fighters has the smaller frontal RCS, and I still can't make sure that which one told the truth (Although personally, I think Rafale should be the one with smaller frontal RCS........).

c. Although Rafale may have the smaller frontal RCS, its radar's detective / tracking range (148 km detective range / 100 km tracking range for the RCS = 5m2 target) is significantly shorter than the Captor-M of EF-2000 (161 to 185 km+ tracking range for the RCS = 5m2 target) right now. According to the basic formula of RCS, Rafale may need a frontal RCS of EF-2000's 1/6 ~ 1/12 to make it be roughly equal to EF-2000 in "First see and First lock" during the BVR engagement.

The French Navy has operated both American and British Types over the years. While, I don't see the French giving up the Rafale for F-35C's. Its possible at least a small number of F-35B's could be purchased to operate from Amphibious Ships...................

tod wrote:

skrip00: some facts

1) the rafale F2 has link 16 (it now represent the vast majority of refale currently in service)

2 ) Damocles laser designation pod will be integrated next year. The AdA wants the rafale F2 in Afganistan next automn. It could have been integrated a lot sooner but it wasn't needed very rapidly since most other Ada aicrafts can drop laser guided bombs. Besides the rafale F2 has ASSM (GPS/INS). ( Can the F22 use a laser designation pod?)

3) OSF is the most comprehensive integrated optonic device in the world for a jet fighter. Far more comprhensive than an simple IRST. the next improvment is already funded.

4) the rafale will be able to fire exocet block 3 missiles in 2008 with the F3 standart.

5) The DGA (french MOD) has funded the next improvments (400M € at the end of october): new rbe2 AESA radar, the OSF nextgen, and a new missile warning receiver. it will be ready in 2012 for the 120th raflale. Note that the new radar will be a generation ahead the F22 and the same generation as the F35's radar.

6) According to french navy pilots from the 16f the rafale F1(! )has defeated all the teen fighter in wvr ans bvr, including the Superhornet in wvr during "opération Héracles". against the superbug when the rafaleM F1 will be rerfied to the larest standart in 2008 with link 16 and finnaly meteor it will not stand a chance in bvr.

7) The rafale came first for the "open competition" for the technical and operational assesment. (South korea and Singapore before the F15 and the Typhoon and second to the F35 but with an extremly small margin for the dutch evaluation but very far ahead the typhoon)

Cool

rafale is one of the very rare major programme which is not under critic in france. The Assembly and the senate now praise this programme. The cost increased of only 4% for all the time of the programme which is quite a performance when you look at other programmes. Paradoxically the report states that it would have costed more if france was commited in th EF programm and that rafale is more suited to post-cold war conflicts with the emphasis on multirole capacities.

Cool

why is the radar is crappy? it works in LPI modes can work in AtA and AtG modes simultaneously and is less prone to jamming than any mecanichal radars due to the agility of the beam and the facts it works in LPI. It will soon have a SAR mode with the ability of tracking ground mooving targets while engaging other aircrafts. yes it has a penalty in range but with the link 16 it is not a problem. Moreover The AESA radar is funded and schedulde for 2012. All the other rafales will be retrofied. The asset of a PESA is that you can keep the same algorithms so fitting an AESA antenna is just plug and play. For the first trials it took about one hour to change the antenna. So this upgrade is relatively cheap. You don't need to fashion a brand new radar.

9) Your willingness to bash the rafale is quite obsessive and suspect. Anti french i guess? I personnaly have nothing against any nations. I lived four years in the states ( 2 years in Seattle and two years in Dallas when i was young) and i like this country. I am very sad to see this kind of behaviour on both sides.

So... did you agree with my previous statement? Cuz it looks like you did.

The fact of the matter is that the Rafale's development is at a snail's pace. Sure its funded. Sure the French Gov't doesnt want to cancel it.

But as of this moment, the aircraft has alot to prove in terms of capability.

Am I anti-French? Nope. But what I am is angry at ever pro-Rafale poster out there talking about the Rafale as if it is a slice of gold cheese.

Yet, when it comes down to it. All they have is an aircraft with an AA mode, and an inability to do what a modernized F-16 Blk. 60 can. Its always touted as some "swing-role" (BS marketing ploy) aircraft. Yet so far it can only do one halfway-right.

Some carrier-based strike fighter... it cant even self designate LGBs!

As for #7. I highly doubt that. The Rafale sure had some WVR capabilties, but lost when it came down to payload, range, and BVR.

The F-15K, F-15SG, etc were just the better aircraft to suit those customers' needs. Especially since they didnt want to wait till 2020 to get a fully-functional aircraft.

On SPECTRA. I love how in a time when LPI radars and AESA's are becoming the norm, that the French claim this system can detect enemy emissions and merely shoot them down based on that.

SPECTRA as a whole is identical to the F/A-18E/Fs IDECM suite. A modular ECM/EW self-defense system with onboard jammers, flares, chaff, and RWRs.

Based on this, I can say the SuperHornets can also fire on enemy targets based on their EW emissions as well. But why bother? The USN and USAF typically operate designated EW aircraft.

So one can also say: SPECTRA is a poor man's Electronic Warfare capability.

The rafale came first of korean and singaporean technical evaluation ahead the F15 and the typhoon and second in the dutch evaluation very close to the F35 but far ahead the typhoon.
This is sufficient to call it a slice of gold cheese. It has begun to prove its capabilities.

Moussez said that in dogfight exercises, the Rafale had outflown F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents, and in technical and performance evaluations "we have systematically won against the F-15 and the Eurofighter Typhoon." Yet it lost to the F-15 in competitions to sell to South Korea and Singapore. Moussez said it was outflanked in the former case on political grounds and in the latter case on costs, noting that the dollar had depreciated 30 percent over the period of the Singapore competition.

During the latest tiger meet (for the F2) and exercises at landivisiau and Lieven with several air forces for the F1. Pilots from different countries praised its performances.

During their stay, each pilot
flew several missions every
day and, for all Mirage 2000
and F-16 aircrews involved,
the exercise was their first
encounter with the Rafale.
Needless to say, they were all
impressed by the latest Dassault
fighter.
« In a dogfight, using only our
guns and short range missiles,
it is indeed very difficult for a
Mirage 2000 pilot to win the
day against a Rafale, admits
Commandant Jean-Roch Piselli,
t h e ‘ B o s s ’ o f E C 1 / 5
Detachment. Considering the
imposed rules of engagement
during the first phase of the
exercise, our only real opportunity
was to fire first, just after
the crossover. Even though the
Mirage 2000 is equipped with
notoriously effective fly-bywire
controls, it does not offer
the same level of performance
in terms of manoeuvrability
a n d e n g i n e t h r u s t a n d
response. We have to select
full afterburner as soon as the
fight begins while the Rafale
pilot can throttle back and
even remain in full dry, military
power: we burn more fuel
and our infrared signature is
significantly higher whereas
he can reaccelerate very rapidly
if needed. »
Flottille 12F was declared fully
operational in June 2004, and
the Rafale pilots now perfectly
know how to handle their aircraft
to quickly win the fight:
« we always devise a ‘game
plan’ to exploit both the Rafale’s
fantastic acceleration and its
outstanding agility, explains
Lieutenant-Commander Pascal
Cassan. Against a F-16, the
Rafale is more powerful in the
whole flight envelope, and is
considerably more manoeuvrable
below 300 knots.
Ideally, after the crossover, I will
climb into the sun to force him
to slow down. I will constantly
threaten him by pointing the
Rafale’s nose in his direction.
That will force him to tighten his
turn even more, and his speed
will wash out very rapidly. On
the contrary, the F-16 pilots
will do what they can to keep
their speed and energy up. »
Numerous ‘beyond visual
range’ (BVR) engagements
were simulated during the
week, and the Rafale proved
as deadly in the long-range
arena as in a dogfight: « I think
that our RBE2 electronic scanning
radar is very good, indicates
Lieutenant Le Bars.Against a F-15 or a F-16, two
aircraft types that have enormous
radar cross-sections
because of their massive airintakes,
our detection ranges
are excellent. In a BVR scenario,
we always try to engage
at high level and fire our lethal
Mica missiles at high altitude
to give them the longest possible
range. Ideally, we will
‘loft’ the radar-guided Micas
to boost their range before
diving down to low level while
simultaneously opening left or
right. In doing so, we deny the
opponent any opportunity to
fire back. When in the ‘merge’,
we quickly gain the upper hand
against a F-16: with our large
delta wing and our canard
foreplanes, we have considerably
more authority in pitch
and we can turn more tightly,
the Rafale offering better sustained
turn rates than the F-16
at low, medium and high levels.
[i]Our Snecma M88-2 turbofans
are so powerful that we often
have to reduce power to avoid
overtaking our prey.»All participants agreed that
this first edition of the Flottille
12F Air Defence Week was a
total success. Flottille 12F specialists
are already busy
preparing the 2007 event
which should attract a larger
foreign contingent. By July
2007, the first four Standard
F2 omnirole Rafale fighters
will be in service with the unit,
and they are likely to participate
in the exercise too.[/i]

You are mistaken when you say that rafale is only AtoA capable. THe F2 which now represent the majority is a true multirole aircraft. It has reached full operational capacities the 27th of June this year. so you don't need to wait 2020. IT is already working very well and further improvments will be added.
It has some unique capabilities such has doing simultaneous AtoA and AtoG tracking or advanced datafusion.
The F1 was required because of the obsolecent crusader. But it is just an interim solution. The navy received their first rafale F2 recently.

EW is exellent it comes from France bigest black programme; Rafale was rated first for EW during the Korean evaluation and US Navy's pilots (f14) said that the rafale couldn't be locked before 25 miles during operation heracles. Besides LPI doesn't make your radar invisible but harder to indentify.

Besides could you reread Toan's post and the extract of the articles that I have posted. They bring arguments that just debunks yours. Thanks.

and i also want to add that i don't think that rafale is the best on this planet. I just think that it has exellent performances far better than you think. I repeat This programme is one of the very few which is praised by the paliament and the senate. both for prformances in comparison with the competition and costs.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

What if... France dumps the Rafale for the F-35?