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US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills



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Asif
PostPosted: May 21, 2010 - 04:00 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Stars & Stripes wrote:

US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills

By SLOBODAN LEKIC
Associated Press Writer
May 21, 4:41 AM EDT

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- The U.S. military's workhorse rifle - used in battle for the last 40 years - is proving less effective in Afghanistan against the Taliban's more primitive but longer range weapons.

As a result, the U.S. is reevaluating the performance of its standard M-4 rifle and considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round largely discarded in the 1960s.

The M-4 is an updated version of the M-16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. It worked well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was in cities such as Baghdad, Ramadi and Fallujah.

But a U.S. Army study found that the 5.56 mm bullets fired from M-4s don't retain enough velocity at distances greater than 1,000 feet (300 meters) to kill an adversary. In hilly regions of Afghanistan, NATO and insurgent forces are often 2,000 to 2,500 feet (600-800 meters) apart.

Afghans have a tradition of long-range ambushes against foreign forces. During the 1832-1842 British-Afghan war, the British found that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach insurgent sharpshooters firing higher-caliber Jezzail flintlocks.

Soviet soldiers in the 1980s found that their AK-47 rifles could not match the World War II-era bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by mujahedeen rebels.

"These are important considerations in Afghanistan, where NATO forces are frequently attacked by insurgents using ... sharpshooter's rifles, which are all chambered for a full-powered cartridge which dates back to the 1890s," said Paul Cornish, curator of firearms at the Imperial War Museum in London.

The heavier bullets enable Taliban militants to shoot at U.S. and NATO soldiers from positions well beyond the effective range of the coalition's rifles.

To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. They are equipped with the new M-110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62 mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet (800 meters).

At the heart of the debate is whether a soldier is better off with the more-rapid firepower of the 5.56mm bullets or with the longer range of the 7.62 mm bullets.

"The reason we employ the M-4 is because it's a close-in weapon, since we anticipate house-to-house fighting in many situations," said Lt. Col. Denis J. Riel, a NATO spokesman.

He added that each squad also has light machine guns and automatic grenade launchers for the long-range engagements common in Afghanistan.

In the early years of the Vietnam War, the Army's standard rifle was the M-14, which fired a 7.62 mm bullet. The gun had too much recoil to be controllable during automatic firing and was considered too unwieldily for close-quarter jungle warfare. The M-16 replaced it in the mid-1960s.

Lighter bullets also meant soldiers could carry more ammunition on lengthy jungle patrols.

The M-16 started a general trend toward smaller cartridges. Other weapons such as the French FAMAS and the British L85A1 adopted them, and the round became standardized as the "5.56mm NATO."

The Soviet Union, whose AK-47 already used a shorter 7.62 mm bullet that was less powerful but more controllable, created a smaller 5.45mm round for its replacement AK-74s.

"The 5.56 mm caliber is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target," said Col. Douglas Tamilio, program manager for U.S. Army firearms at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey. "But at 500-600 meters (1,600-2,000 feet), the round doesn't have stopping power, since the weapon system was never designed for that."

The arsenal, which is the Army's center for small-arms development, is trying to find a solution.

A possible compromise would be an interim-caliber round combining the best characteristics of the 5.56mm and 7.62mm cartridges, Tamilio said.

The challenge is compounded by the fact that in flat areas of Afghanistan, most firefights take place at shorter ranges of up to 1,000 feet (300 meters), where the M-4 performs well.

U.S. soldiers in militant-infested Zhari district in southern Afghanistan's Kandahar province said they haven't experienced problems with the range of their M-4 rifles.

Lt. Scott Doyle, a platoon commander in Zhari, said his troops are usually facing Taliban AK-47s.

"When the Taliban get past 300 meters (1,000 feet) with an AK-47, they are just spraying and praying," he said.

Martin Fackler, a ballistics expert, also defended the 5.56 mm round, blaming the M-4s inadequate performance on its short barrel, which makes it easier for soldiers to scramble out of modern armored vehicles.

"Unfortunately weapon engineers shortened the M-16's barrel to irrational lengths," Fackler said. "It was meant for a 20-inch barrel. What they've done by cutting the barrel to 14.5 inches is that they've lost a lot of velocity."

---

Associated Press correspondent Sebastian Abbot in Lako Khel, Afghanistan contributed to this report.

source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... 1-04-41-59

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Guysmiley
PostPosted: May 21, 2010 - 07:09 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Hmm. Slobadan needs to read a book. The M16 nor M4 (no hyphen) were not "designed for Vietnam". Analysis of combat engagements in WWI, WWII and Korea showed that the vast majority of kills from small arms came at less than 300 yards. Seeing this, Eugene Stoner approached Winchester to develop the .223 cartridge, a small, extremely fast and very flat firing round which he then employed in a smaller version of his AR-10, which became the AR-15.

The M4 carbine was a result of the experience the Army had in urban conflicts in Panama, the Middle East and Somalia in the late '80s and early '90s. Maybe he is confusing it with the Vietnam era CAR-15/XM177.
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discofishing
PostPosted: Jun 28, 2010 - 12:31 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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They make piston conversion kits for the M16/M4 series rifles. That's what the us military should go for. That and use rounds that are designed to fragment upon impact.
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r2d2
PostPosted: Jun 28, 2010 - 02:05 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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I surely don't know the conditions in WWII and/or Vietnam but today in Afghanistan 5.56 is not enough. US forces must go for 7.62 (something like HK417) or may be 6.8 with a brand new and efficient design.

That US platoon commander Lt is wrong. IMO he has never been ambushed by terrorists with AK47s no matter the engagement is within 50 meters, 300 meters or 400 meters.
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madrat
PostPosted: Jun 28, 2010 - 03:35 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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So 3 out of every eight soldiers has the capability to shoot 2,500 feet with an M-110? Sounds like they have the solution already in hand. What's the problem again?
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PostPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 01:04 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:

So 3 out of every eight soldiers has the capability to shoot 2,500 feet with an M-110? Sounds like they have the solution already in hand. What's the problem again?



Where'd you read that!?!?!

It says:
"To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. They are equipped with the new M-110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62 mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet (800 meters)."

Do you know how big an infantry company is? They're around ~200 troops (or more), with 4 ~50 men platoons of 4 squads each. Each squad is around ~10 soldiers. I think Marines have about ~13 per squad. Anyways, only 9 guys out of each infantry company is not enough.

About 5 years ago the Army started a program involving a "squad designated marksmen". One guy per squad would have the equivalent of a match grade M16A4 with an ACOG scope (x3 or x4 magnification) mounted on the top rail. This was a great way to recycle old M16A1 lower receivers. I don't know what happened to the SDM program. It looked like a good idea. In my last tour in Iraq (2006-2007) I didn't see any match grade M16A4s (doesn't mean there weren't any). Saw plenty of M14s (and stuff based on it), M107s, SPR-12s, etc. I guess it kind of went by the way side.

Weight is a big issue. Guys in Asscrackistan have too much weight already. A bigger round equals more weight. You can't change their shooting habits over night, either. Lets face it, a guy who fires an M14 who carries less rounds is going to shoot way different than guys shooting M16s/M4s. I think the best thing to do is keep the same basic 5.56 round, but design a bullpup style rifle that will still have a long barrel, but will be recessed a lot more inside the frame of the rifle. That way the overall dimensions of the weapon are still good for CQB and fitting inside vehicles. A longer barrel and higher grain round will probably give greater range and stopping power at further distances. In the long run, there's no substitution for better training and common sense. What has to be realized is that the region being talked about is very mountainous and a lot of times the ambushes are going to be coming from the tops of these mountains or hills. That allows potential energy to favor the insurgents while the good guys are shooting up hill, which drains away their kinetic energy. Even if we start shooting a round that has better range (ie. 7.62) and more stopping power, there still won't be parity with the enemy if they're firing down at you. It's a tough situation, one that shouldn't be solved by a bunch of damn chairborne officers. Infantry NCOs (E-5s, E-6s) are the ones that should be charged with fixing this problem, but sadly the officers are the ones with all the rank.
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madrat
PostPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 07:54 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Yeah, I read platoon into that comment where it said company. That means its only approximately 1 in 20.

Wasn't that Land Warrior program supposed to address some of these issues with those exotic large caliber rounds?
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r2d2
PostPosted: Jun 29, 2010 - 07:56 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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@ discofishing

Bullpup design may please your eye and may be effective in buildings, in APCs etc but believe me, you change a lot of magazines during combat. It is not practical to change magazines in a bullpup rifle.
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PostPosted: Jul 04, 2010 - 10:03 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Have you ever been in a fire fight with an AUG or SA80?
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r2d2
PostPosted: Jul 05, 2010 - 04:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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No, never used a bullpup rifle. I have seen HK G3, HK33, M-16, AK-47 and some heavies.
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PostPosted: Jul 05, 2010 - 11:02 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Well, as far as magazine changing goes, we'd really have to ask the British about their SA80 or the Australian about their Steyr AUG. They are the ones using bullpup designs in fire fights on a consistent basis right now. I've personally shot the AUG and would've rather had it on my Iraq tours than an M4 or M16A4. I've never had problems with changing magazines on an AUG. It seems just as fast as with anything I was issued, accept the M240B, M249 of course.
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r2d2
PostPosted: Jul 05, 2010 - 05:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Experience is personal of course. If that is the case this will change my view of the bullpup rifles completely. I just can't figure it out myself; how do you change magazines, for example, while lying on the ground?
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PostPosted: Jul 05, 2010 - 09:41 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:

I just can't figure it out myself; how do you change magazines, for example, while lying on the ground?


Well I think the highly trained/equipped troops of the British and Australian militaries have figured that out pretty well. If you've never shot bullpup weapons how can you comment on how easy/difficult a magazine change would be? You're speaking from a position of ignorance. I've worked with British and Australian guys, and they (for the most part) like their weapons. Your argument doesn't stand on its own. You should do some research.
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r2d2
PostPosted: Jul 06, 2010 - 12:07 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/fa_ar_sa80.htm

and

http://www.steyrarms.com/nc/news/items/ ... g-the-aug/
photo at the bottom which says ''Speed reload...''

Anyway thanks for your info, if those soldiers are happy with their rifles I must stop commenting.
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PostPosted: Jul 06, 2010 - 12:49 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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The SA80 is gas operated like the M16/M4 series of assault rifles. This means carbon is blown into the breach and on the bolt face which hinders the feeding and extraction abilities of the weapon causing things like misfeeds and double feeds. This is something that I've heard Royal Marines complain about. They just have to keep their weapons very clean. White grease is also used sometimes instead of regular CLP. I've not heard of this issue with the AUG. It must be piston operated. As for reloading, soldiers who are very familiar with their weapon know how to reload very fast. Reloading with an SA80 or AUG is just different than an M4/M16. I wouldn't consider it any slower or faster, it just depends on the person operating the weapon. Thanks for the links. It's nice to know our Customs guys are putting the AUG to good use. As for the Brits, they need to further upgrade the SA80. I plan on getting an M4, but won't get it until I purchased a gas-piston conversion kit before hand. I'm planning on getting an MSAR AUG as well, they are really fun weapons to shoot.
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