India and the F-35?

[Corsair1963]

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Credit: Oliver Chaudhry (Facebook)

OMG, Priceless...

Lots of conflicting views here on SU-57's ultimate numbers. I suppose it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is Russian economy. I think the scenario put forth that made the most sense is low production numbers every month (1-2) just to keep Sukhoi busy. I also agree the SU-57 will likely be used to replace the Mig-31, as the cost of developing a mach 4 plus interceptor (that allegedly flies into and out of outer space, LOL) would be prohibitive.

Also, the point that Russia made a huge mistake insofar as developing a heavy vs. lighter stealth fighter was spot on. Little chance for a 100+ million SU-57 quasi stealth fighter being sold, especially with F-35's rolling off production lines by then at $80 million/copy...

This is why I keep coming back to a possible Russian J-31. As they just can't afford vast numbers of Su-57's for every mission. In addition Russia clearly doesn't have the time or resources to develop another Stealth Fighter either. As that boat sailed along time ago....

Nor, is the West going to sell a 5th Generation Fighter to them. See what other "viable" solution does Russia have???

Honestly, I've heard plenty of naysayers that think I am crazy. Yet, none ever seems to have an alternative either!

[lbk000]

No, I really can't see it. It's not in their national character. Russians have their pride -- Sukhoi was admonished for his early jet designs being too much straight-rips of the Me262.

They will do without or find something else, but it must be Russian.

[Corsair1963]

No, I really can't see it. It's not in their national character. Russians have their pride -- Sukhoi was admonished for his early jet designs being too much straight-rips of the Me262.

They will do without or find something else, but it must be Russian.

Russia just doesn't have the resources anymore. So, sooner or later the cold hard truth is going to have to come to the surface! (pride or not)

That said, sure Russia could live without. Yet, a modest number of Su-57's. Is going to regulate Russia to nothing but a minor "Regional Power". Something that I have a hard time believing Russia will easily except. (talk about pride)

As for "it must be Russian" your making my case for the J-31. As it is already flying with an Russian Engine. Plus, a Russian Version could also include Russian Avionics and Weapons. Which, Russia could happily spin as mainly a Russian Aircraft or at least co-developed one with China. (easy for RT and Sputnik)

That said, I am not saying the above will happen. I am just saying Russia has few if any real alternatives....

[Corsair1963]

Does anybody have a better alternative????


1.) Acquire just a modest number of Su-57's. (~200-250) Which, will regulate Russia as a minor Regional Power.

2.) Buy the J-31 under license with Russian Components

3.) ???

4.) ???

[spazsinbad]

I thought this thread was about 'India & the F-35?' NOT typed in italics - which are difficult to read on various screens.

[Corsair1963]

I assumed that we had some latitude.....


Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

[marsavian]

I think your missing the point??? Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world's largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. It includes nine different time zones and shares land borders with 14 neighboring countries. In addition Russia has thousands of Cold War Era Fighters in need of replacement! (among many other types)

So, do you really think 1-2 Su-57's per month is going to be adequate???

Thousands fighters?!?

Russia have ~250 new fighters and ~500 old fighters. Russian AF plans are to have in 2020s ~700 new fighters. Old will retired:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2326878.html

New are Su-30/35/57. Su-57 will probable replace MiG-31, it doesn't have max speed but cruise capability is lot better (no need for afterburner).

Good detailed link there on future Russian planning worth expanding as they are only expecting about 50 Su-57 by 2025. How many F-35s will be around then ?!

Speaking about the current state of the fighter fleet of the Russian Armed Forces, including both the VCS and the Naval Aviation of the Navy, it should be pointed out that now, according to known data, there are 246 new fighters with a service life of less than 10 years (58 Su-35S, 79 Su -30SM, 20 Su-30M2, 12 Su-27SM3, 44 MiG-29SMT, ten MiG-29UB, 23 MiG-29KR / CUBR) and about 440 old fighters, including modernized ones (approximately 180 Su-27, 20 Su-33 , 120 MiG-29, 120 MiG-31).

Of this number, 210 new fighters (58 Su-35S, 66 Su-30SM, 20 Su-30M2, 12 Su-27SM3, 44 MiG-12SM, 29SMT, ten MiG-29UB) and 370 old fighters, including modernized ones (approximately about 160 Su-27, 120 MiG-29, 90 MiG-31), and practically all the "old" MiG-29s (with the exception of the air group in Armenia) are used already for educational purposes or stopped using.

With the current organizational structure of the VCS retained (without new transfers of their units and formations to the Navy), the figure of 700 fighters looks quite achievable for the Russian military aviation system by 2025, although it will require the maintenance of deliveries of Su-35S and Su-30SM fighters to the troops on average 25-30 aircraft per year in the period 2021-2025.

As for the fifth-generation fighter of the T-50, we can expect the release of only relatively small series of these fighters in the period of 2021-2025, and that indeed the "mass" mass production and deliveries to the T-50 combat units will begin as a "second phase" "in the period after 2025.

Thus, according to the optimistic scenario, in 2025 the fighter fleet of the Russian Air Force can number up to 480-500 fighters of a new construction with a service life of less than 20 years (approximately 50 T-50C, 150-170 Su-35S, 150-170 Su-30SM , 30 Su-27SM3 / Su-30M2, 50 MiG-29SMT / UB, 36 MiG-35) and up to 210 modernized fighters of old types (up to 90 Su-27SM / SM3, 120 MiG-31BM / BSM).

[spazsinbad]

I assumed that we had some latitude.....

Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

You exaggerate but thanks for no italics.

[Corsair1963]

I assumed that we had some latitude.....

Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

You exaggerate but thanks for no italics.

Maybe but the point was valid. Nonetheless, your welcome for the latter.

[weasel1962]

LM sweetening India F-16 deal with F-35 tech

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... technology

Did they also mention that the F-16 and F-35 share other commonalities like wings, cockpit, engine, etc...

[Corsair1963]

LM sweetening India F-16 deal with F-35 tech

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... technology

Did they also mention that the F-16 and F-35 share other commonalities like wings, cockpit, engine, etc...

Honestly, it sounds more and more like India will acquire the F-16 Block 70. Which, will be followed by the F-35 at some point....

[popcorn]

Will India still insist that the foreign supplier be liable for shoddy workmanship and quality control issues arising from production in India? That's what scuttled the MMRCA Rafale deal.

[Corsair1963]

Will India still insist that the foreign supplier be liable for shoddy workmanship and quality control issues arising from production in India? That's what scuttled the MMRCA Rafale deal.

What they want and what they get from the US is another story........

[spazsinbad]

US shoots foot methinks. Trust seems to be a big issue for India - but why trust Russia equally? Poor old India indeed.

New U.S. Sanctions Pose Dilemma for India’s Defense
18 May 2018 Neelam Mathews

"[complicated stuff then] …“This issue brings us back to the issue of trust that took so long to build between the two nations,” [India/USA] said an Indian MoD official....

...“India warrants an exemption from these secondary sanctions, as does any country with which the U.S. is forging new and strategically important defense relations,” said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis last month called on Congress to grant national security waivers to CAATSA. “There are nations in the world who are trying to turn away from formerly Russian-sourced weapons and systems. We only need to look at India, Vietnam, and some others to recognize that. Eventually, we’re going to paralyze ourselves,” he told the Senate Armed Services Committee."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... as-defense

[weasel1962]

Sanctions or not, this may be what kills the MRCA2.

HAL offers to build 40 Su-30mki
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/22516#.WwINw2cUnVI

Weasel's notes:
1. The fighter is cheaper than MRCA competitors (in terms of upfront cost).
2. The line is already set up but due to finish production in Mar 2020. This is as "made in India" as the other MRCA lines will be.
3. The add-on order will mean the IAF gets its aircraft faster.
4. As the Su-30mki is already in use, no issue of integration. In fact the fighter will be combat ready from day 1.

The Su-30MKI was not a competitor in the past because it did not make sense to build a new line to boost capacity for a small number of new builds. Now it makes sense (or rupees, pun intended). The savings could go to upgrading (or upgradationing as some Indians would say) the existing Su-30MKIs.