Finnish DefMin interested in F-35s, not Gripens

[ricnunes]

In the visible part of the spectrum I don't speak of specifications, only what all of us can see. It is easy Gripen is the least visible, then rafale, then Eurofighter, then F-35 then F-18ASH.

That's it. In the visual spectrum what you have as detector are matrix with very great resolution. You talk in angualr resolution. ANd of course the smallest you are the less easy you are to be detected and to be identified.

Ok, so you're talking about visual/eye spectrum, right?

Even these things aren't that straightfoward, lets look at some dimensions:

F-35:
Length: 51.4 ft (15.7 m)
Wingspan: 35 ft (11 m)
Height: 14.4 ft (4.4 m)
Wing area: 460 sq ft (43 m2)

Rafale:
Length: 15.27 m (50 ft 1 in)
Wingspan: 10.90 m (35 ft 9 in)
Height: 5.34 m (17 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 45.7 m2 (492 sq ft)

Typhoon:
Length: 15.96 m (52 ft 4 in)
Wingspan: 10.95 m (35 ft 11 in)
Height: 5.28 m (17 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 51.2 m2 (551 sq ft)

So we can conclude that while the F-35 has a slightly longer length than the Rafale (while Typhoon has a slightly longer length than F-35) and slightly longer wingspan compared to the Rafale and Typhoon, the F-35 has a smaller wing area than both the Rafale and Typhoon while having a considerable smaller height than both Rafale and Typhoon which is in great part likely due to both Rafale and Typhoon having a bigger tail.
And big surfaces (with bigger area) like the wings and tails tend to stick out more (be more visible) than for instance the fuselage itself.
So I would say the visibly the Rafale and Typhoon probably "stick out" more than the F-35 since both former aircraft will resemble more like a "triangle in the sky".

And then of course the F-35 has DAS which works as a 360 degree IRST and the IR spectrum is much more sensitive (detects better) than the visible spectrum which would be another huge advantage by the F-35 in terms of close range engagement.
On top of this, the F-35 has far more extensive IR reduction measures than any of the other aircraft mentioned (namely Rafale and Typhoon).

[XanderCrews]

It didn't hurt in Switzerland last time they checked

hurt? didn't help either which is my point. They picked the Gripen remember?

There is no dramatic difference in the numbers. The number are there, and you can look

Oh, I see. So in fact you got it wrong. Nice try, though.

The replacement decision for Switzerland’s ageing F-5s has finally arrived, and it will be the Swedish Gripen E/F, otherwise known as the Gripen Next Generation.

Without reading to much into this decision, the shrewd and logical Swiss are not known for splurging on big defense programs, but it would seem that some sanity has returned to the fighter jet marketplace. For a while, it seemed that light fighter aircraft with modest capabilities were being replaced by much heavier and expensive cutting edge designs. In the case of the Swiss F-5 replacement competition, the Swiss Air Force has opted for an aircraft that is not only more representative of the fighter it is intended to replace but also much less costly to procure, operate and maintain than its rivals.

http://aviationintel.com/swiss-go-for-gripen-ng/

You betcha!

. They should know a thing or two that you don't, isn't it ?

indeed, and they picked Gripen. Sure you want to use the Swiss there as your example?

Do you have something personal against this plane ?

Are you talking to me or Switzerland?

Your tendency to claim things out of thin air is puzzling

what were you claiming with Switzerland, I have no idea what you were pulling out of thin air on that one.

[magitsu]

We might need to stop this discussion for a moment. Because herciv admitted on the French forums that his intention was to flood this and the Swiss thread with SPECTRA etc. so it would be about it instead of F-35, Typhoon or Gripen.
Not to mention about gleeing how this thread specifically has been 10 days and many pages about Rafale.

I see nothing of value brought for a while, just drip feeding of self-identified subpar sources that allows to clog potentionally more relevant discussion. What happens is known from the Basement Dweller thread. Everyone is rushing in to correct. The worse take, the more engagement.

We were way too hospitable assuming he's here to learn, but just somehow accidentally managed not to at all.

[kimjongnumbaun]

Can we stop using the term “active stealth”? It’s literally the dumbest term ever coined. Anyone who uses it is an idiot and has no idea how radar works, and they need to suck start a shotgun to save us the pain.

[optimist]

I liked their 'active cancellation' better
I had a look on air-defense.net to catch up. He must be on one of the others.

[magitsu]

I liked their 'active cancellation' better
I had a look on air-defense.net to catch up. He must be on one of the others.

He's there. That active cancellation bong sure is passed around a lot there.

[XanderCrews]

We might need to stop this discussion for a moment. Because herciv admitted on the French forums that his intention was to flood this and the Swiss thread with SPECTRA etc. so it would be about it instead of F-35, Typhoon or Gripen.
Not to mention about gleeing how this thread specifically has been 10 days and many pages about Rafale.

I see nothing of value brought for a while, just drip feeding of self-identified subpar sources that allows to clog potentionally more relevant discussion. What happens is known from the Basement Dweller thread. Everyone is rushing in to correct. The worse take, the more engagement.

We were way too hospitable assuming he's here to learn, but just somehow accidentally managed not to at all.

awww that explains a lot.

so herciv wasn't dealing in good faith. I genuinely couldn't tell if he was actually dumb or just playing dumb. now we know. So we need to get in touch with the moderators and this mass "raid" by the French spammers not interested in dialog and conversation and debate mass banned.

I was wondering why herciv managed to persist again and again in derailing the thread. I'm reporting him now.

Hopefully we can get this all sorted out with the moderators. is herciv being paid or is he just a loser?

[XanderCrews]

would recommend all Rafale posters be directed here:

F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

No reason to have them destroying multiple topical threads. They can go play there in the meantime

[spazsinbad]

I'll treasure this sentence until I cark it: THX 'optimist'! "We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine"

"..."Example of aircraft using tactical stealth: the Rafale (penetration at low altitude and high speed, use of humidity and temperature layers,slow flight to deceive Doppler 8 radars ), the U-2 (high altitude flight) , the SR-71 (high speed flight)."..." cark it: https://outbackdictionary.com/cark-it/

[XanderCrews]

herciv
Hero
herciv
Members
7.170
8,160 posts
Country: France
Posted 11 hours ago
12 hours ago, Picdelamirand-oil said:
I find that meta-defense did not understand anything about Rafale, and that therefore it is not interesting.

Yes, but it allows me to control the tempo of the interventions. I know that they will end up looking for links on the French forums so that allows me to anticipate or even guide them. Meta-defense is a defense analyst who believes in himself a bit, but he will allow me to say that analysts from all countries, including the US, are only analysts. And in addition the Rafale has occupied the finland page of f-16.net for at least ten days and as many pages. The Finn who will pass by there will have information sourced on the spectra and not on the rest. (f-35, typhy, gripen).

Thanks 1

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/ ... /page/352/

Yuuuup

[XanderCrews]

herciv
8,160 posts
Posted 10 hours ago
11 hours ago, Bon Plan said:
than on F16.net.

Otherwise .... I have already gone through the dry bread and water box here ....

I love !

Already back on f-16.net?

11 hours ago, FAFA said:
On the other hand, the Federal Councilor in charge of foreign affairs met Jean Yves le Drian yesterday in Paris. A French leak following this interview? Well done! France had done everything right up to now and just before the finish line they made a mistake. Since that's how we'll take the F-35, that'll teach you : biggrin:.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/fr/accueil/doc ... 83992.html

Biden is already being punished then? Now the Drian. Caramba is the eurofighter the winner then.

11 hours ago, casoucasou said:
Yes !

I have the impression that if we don't start our sentence with "I'm sorry, master, to contradict your greatness badge", well we are boozy.

Yes it is the technique. I prefer to let go when the subject is not on my agenda or when I want to close a subject. It doesn't always work, but at least so far I haven't been blocked.

It's someone from our region @rochambeaudegrasse because on f-16.net I have the impression that it's ATE who just got angry!

More from Herciv and the French raid.

Their goal is to spam the thread, drown out all descent, control the threads and elevate the Rafale to anyone who stops by.

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/ ... /page/352/

Be sure to ignore all their posts and no longer address them directly. report early and often.

[optimist]

:devil: I'll treasure this sentence until I cark it: THX 'optimist'! "We all live in a yellow submarine, yellow submarine"

"..."Example of aircraft using tactical stealth: the Rafale (penetration at low altitude and high speed, use of humidity and temperature layers, slow flight to deceive Doppler 8 radars ), the U-2 (high altitude flight) , the SR-71 (high speed flight)."..." [cark it: https://outbackdictionary.com/cark-it/ ]

French wiki is even better than YouTube comments. You can see how they live in a French speaking bubble.
A full nationalistic pride, feedback loop. If I looked at the French page on the Mars expedition. I'm sure there would be a Rafale superiority or at least a 'like the Rafale' somewhere in it.

[ricnunes]

We might need to stop this discussion for a moment. Because herciv admitted on the French forums that his intention was to flood this and the Swiss thread with SPECTRA etc. so it would be about it instead of F-35, Typhoon or Gripen.
Not to mention about gleeing how this thread specifically has been 10 days and many pages about Rafale.

I see nothing of value brought for a while, just drip feeding of self-identified subpar sources that allows to clog potentionally more relevant discussion. What happens is known from the Basement Dweller thread. Everyone is rushing in to correct. The worse take, the more engagement.

We were way too hospitable assuming he's here to learn, but just somehow accidentally managed not to at all.

awww that explains a lot.

so herciv wasn't dealing in good faith. I genuinely couldn't tell if he was actually dumb or just playing dumb. now we know. So we need to get in touch with the moderators and this mass "raid" by the French spammers not interested in dialog and conversation and debate mass banned.

I was wondering why herciv managed to persist again and again in derailing the thread. I'm reporting him now.

Hopefully we can get this all sorted out with the moderators. is herciv being paid or is he just a loser?

DITTO!
And yeah, that indeed explains a lot.

And I also hope and urge that the moderators take action as this is getting really annoying!

[OPIT]

Are you a Rafale fan(atic)? Because your tendency to claim things out of thin air is puzzling.

I claimed nothing, I questioned someone else claims. That's a different thing.
Now your attitude toward me is not pleasant, especially as I didn't talk to you in the first place. Quit your superior attitude, that's not the way to go.

[OPIT]

numbers don't lie.

True. But you have to understand what they really mean.

Am I not allowed to wonder things?

You're not wondering, you're asserting.

Your tendency to ignore numbers and present no counter evidence is equally puzzling.

I don't ignore numbers, I know what they mean and what they don't. In addition, providing counter evidence appears to be a futile job here recently.

Did you want to play the ball and not the man now? Do you want to argue about the merits of these aircraft in question or whine more about personal vendettas you think you see?

I played the ball, I challenged you on two occasions only to get garbage in return. Do you really think that "underpowered" is related to electrical power ? Really ? I hope not...