Finnish DefMin interested in F-35s, not Gripens

[herciv]

Let's move away from Spectra.

Storm Shadow / Black Shaheen / SCALP EG looks a bit weary already. What could Dassault offer for the future, since the gap to JASSM family seems to be widening?
https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/apache-ap/

Apart from Meteor (widely accepted as very capable), MBDA portfolio might have some challenges. Amazingly they haven't managed to win any competitions in Finland lately (Exocet beaten by Gabriel V, SAMP/T "beaten" by NASAMS, Aster beaten by ESSM). Though certainly that would change a lot with a non-US HX fighter win.

Long Range AIR TO GROUND missile is a weakness compare to the US portfolio. I agree.

But MICA NG is a real plus, the longest range IR missile in the market, and /or AESA radar able, if sheduled, to jamm a radar.

[kimjongnumbaun]

This is the antenna on the Rafale.

rafale-spectra_orig (1).jpg (22.3 KiB) Viewed 2781 times

But somehow it's going to generate more power than this?

"Active cancellation" is a cool marketing term, but it only works when your antenna has the ability to drown out the emitter or match its power.

[magitsu]

Here's a good article about the Russian EW threat. It's "space jam" related, so it should be novel compared to the common EW writeups.
https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4056/1

[herciv]

Here's a good article about the Russian EW threat. It's "space jam" related, so it should be novel compared to the common EW writeups.
https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4056/1

Nice find thank you.
" The “S” in Tirada-2S may stand for the Russian word for “centimeter”". It could also stand for S parameters. Those who knows will understand.

[notam123]

Let's move away from Spectra.

Storm Shadow / Black Shaheen / SCALP EG looks a bit weary already. What could Dassault offer for the future, since the gap to JASSM family seems to be widening?
https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/apache-ap/

Apart from Meteor (widely accepted as very capable), MBDA portfolio might have some challenges. Amazingly they haven't managed to win any competitions in Finland lately (Exocet beaten by Gabriel V, SAMP/T "beaten" by NASAMS, Aster beaten by ESSM). Though certainly that would change a lot with a non-US HX fighter win.

Long Range AIR TO GROUND missile is a weakness compare to the US portfolio. I agree.

But MICA NG is a real plus, the longest range IR missile in the market, and /or AESA radar able, if sheduled, to jamm a radar.

Smartglider. Scheduled for F4.2 standard. https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/smartglider/

[magitsu]

Smartglider. Scheduled for F4.2 standard. https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/smartglider/

Glider can't hope to compare to a cruise missile. Note how these aren't powered and even that (JSOW-ER, now cancelled) fell recently to JASSM-ER, which the USN will make into Naval JASSM (with some LRASM software included).

Unfortunately this was only a study, but we should be looking for something like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_(missile)

[hornetfinn]

Let's move away from Spectra.

Storm Shadow / Black Shaheen / SCALP EG looks a bit weary already. What could Dassault offer for the future, since the gap to JASSM family seems to be widening?
https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/apache-ap/

Apart from Meteor (widely accepted as very capable), MBDA portfolio might have some challenges. Amazingly they haven't managed to win any competitions in Finland lately (Exocet beaten by Gabriel V, SAMP/T "beaten" by NASAMS, Aster beaten by ESSM). Though certainly that would change a lot with a non-US HX fighter win.

Good idea...

Anyway, I think likely MICA NG in Dassault offer seem interesting.
https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... ce-system/

On the MICA NG, a new infrared seeker based on a matrix sensor will provide increased sensitivity, while a new radio frequency seeker with an active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) will allow for smart detection strategies. The lower volume of electronic components will enable the MICA NG to carry a larger load of propellant, significantly extending its range, and the new dual-pulse rocket motor will provide additional energy to the missile at the end of its flight, improving its manoeuvrability and its ability to intercept targets at long range. In surface-to-air mode, the MICA NG will be able to intercept targets over 40 km away. Finally, maintenance and ownership costs will be significantly reduced thanks to internal sensors that will monitor the status of the munition throughout its life cycle.

That's pretty damn impressive range for such a small missile. That's twice the range of standard VL MICA, which already has pretty impressive range of 20 km and up to 30,000ft altitude capability. Current MICA missile can reach 80km and MICA NG definitely has a lot longer range. Of course Meteor will definitely have better long distance capability, but MICA NG makes interesting weapons combination with Meteor.

Storm Shadow/SCALP EG have some ongoing upgrades and I think it's quite good missile overall. Same with Taurus KEPD 350. However JASSM is now getting some serious upgrades and new versions. It likely the most advanced and capable missile in JASSM-ER/XR versions. How important those advantages are for Finland is impossible to say as all those missiles have rather long range and have advanced features.

[ricnunes]

And when you hear the word "jamming" you don't quote it as an advance offensive feature ?

Others, namely magitsu already replied to your point above but I would like to add the following words to complement:
Simplifying (specially when compared to magitsu's reply) jamming can be divided into two categories, "Defensive" and "Offensive":
- "Defensive" jamming or "Self-protection" jamming is a capability that an aircraft (or other platforms) can have in order to try to jam a direct threat to the aircraft itself or resuming it can only jam threats that are directly threatening the aircraft hence why it is called "Defensive" jamming. This is what the Rafale has!
- "Offensive" jamming is a capability that an aircraft (or other platforms) can have in order to jam ANY threats that the enemy may be fielding and which aren't (directly) threatening the aircraft itself. This kind of jamming is meant to protect other aircraft or to jam other types of enemy assets such as communication nodes/stations. The Rafale does NOT HAVE such capability!

Capiche?

Of course that jamming can be sub-divided even further into other "sub-categories" as you can read in magitsu's post.

About the French doctrine:
- When or if the French Air Force with its force of Rafales will have to face a modern and integrated air defence systems they would do it together and supported by other allies and assets such and namely as for example the US with aircraft like the Growler or F-35, period.

No there are several missions where french won't ask for SEAD support since we won't ask any permission to do them. As you know we like our independence. Take the example of a turkish attack against our naval asset. I promise you that we won't ask you to come with us in a retaliate mission.

Tell me ONE, just ONE example where the French Air Force engaged an enemy equipped with a "decent" or even a "subpar" Air Defence System alone?? There's NONE, not even ONE!
Beirut Lebanon crisis in the 1980's (Multinational Force in Lebanon)? NOPE!
Desert Storm? NOPE!
Balkans (Bosnia and Kosovo)? NOPE!
And guess what?? Not even in Libya!

Even in places where there aren't any air defence systems and where France supposedly or claimed to "operate alone" such for example in Mali they actually didn't operate alone! For instance in Mali they were supported by Canadian C-17s (by transporting equipment and supplies from France to Mali) and other nations as well!
So please spare me that "France is capable of operating alone against any kind of enemy" nationalistic BS!

[herciv]

Storm Shadow/SCALP EG have some ongoing upgrades and I think it's quite good missile overall. Same with Taurus KEPD 350. However JASSM is now getting some serious upgrades and new versions. It likely the most advanced and capable missile in JASSM-ER/XR versions. How important those advantages are for Finland is impossible to say as all those missiles have rather long range and have advanced features.

Do you know if JASSM-ER/XR or SCALP / STORM SHADOW are included in any of the HX offer?

[ricnunes]

Indeed.
Yes there is a part of risk with this doctrine.
And the raid must have been well prepared to avoid such SA-8 threats.
But French Pilots are very confident in SPECTRA.

The only was to prepare raids in order to avoid threats like the SA-8 is by flying high!

If you're thinking about preparing to avoid threats by avoid their positions you're wrong again - and we've discussed this recently - since there's no way to know where all SA-8 like threats are since they are small and extremely mobile (and never stay put in one location alone). Replace the SA-8 with much more modern systems like the SA-15 and you'll get some nasty surprises!

So and again the only way to avoid threats like the SA-8 or SA-15 is by flying high, unfortunately this puts the aircraft well within the range (both detection and tracking/firing range) of long range air defence systems like for example the S-400. And how can such threat be countered?
By Stealth, "offensive jamming" or dedicated weapons such as Anti-Radiation missiles or a combinations of these three. And guess what? The Rafale doesn't have any of these...

[magitsu]

SA-8 is interestingly very relevant right now.
Luftwaffe brought DDR vintage SA-8 and SA-6 to ACE 21 which is currently (7-18 Jun) being held near the Arctic Circle. Notably Norwegian F-35's first training appearance, and also Luftwaffe Typhoons.

During Arctic Challenge 2021, eight of the systems will simulate enemy air defenses, which fighter jets from Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands, the US, and the United Kingdom will fight against.

https://defbrief.com/2021/06/11/germany ... -exercise/

https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/-/ace-21-to-be ... -june-2021

[herciv]

Capiche?

Of course that jamming can be sub-divided even further into other "sub-categories" as you can read in magitsu's post.

OK

Tell me ONE, just ONE example where the French Air Force engaged an enemy equipped with a "decent" or even a "subpar" Air Defence System alone?? !

I don't know if MIM-23 HAWK and KORAL systems are decent or not but AL-WATIYA here : https://thearabweekly.com/rafale-attack ... -or-french

[herciv]

SA-8 is interestingly very relevant right now.
Luftwaffe brought DDR vintage SA-8 and SA-6 to ACE 21 which is currently (7-18 Jun) being held near the Arctic Circle (with Finland, Norway, Sweden, Germany and the US participating). Notably Norwegian F-35's first training appearance, and also Luftwaffe Typhoons (and F-16, F/A-18C/D and Gripen C/D).
https://defbrief.com/2021/06/11/germany ... -exercise/

https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/-/ace-21-to-be ... -june-2021

Yes you are right and one of the german SA-8 was bought by France in 2008.

[bonplan]

Excellent answer ricnunes, thank you! When it comes to Spectra, it's definitely a top notch defensive EW suite, but it's still a defensive EW suite meant for self-protection. Dedicated EW aircraft like Growler or even just dedicated pod like Saab EAJP will be a lot more powerful and have much more offensive capabilities. Same with these EW missiles like Spear-EW as they can provide stand-in jamming, meaning getting close to radar to provide effective jamming with relatively low power levels. F-35 can provide effective stand-off and stand-in jamming due to VLO stealth which allows getting close to threat radars and also F-35s require low power levels for jamming support due to their very low RCS.

Of course the French will claim that Spectra is so good that dedicated stand-off jammers or EW-missiles are not needed. However other fighters also have extensive and modern self-defence suites while also having jamming support from dedicated EW aircraft/pods and/or EW missiles.

What is the goal of electronic counter system?
To alloy the attaquant to deliver its load and coming alive at home.
For that 2 possible way s:
The US one, with harsh electronic jammer so as to blind the foe = Growler.
The other one, as the french do, with less power. Just to avoid the ennemy to elaborate a fire solution.

One is aggressiv and typically an american way. The other is less. But facts are that Rafale can flew over a S300 when a F16 CJ can't, and that one or more Rafale destroyed an illegal turquish base in Lybia, without beeing seen and even less destroyed despite radars and sam.

US jets need other dedicated birds to protect them, when Rafale is able to protect itself.

[pron]

There's the obvious elephant in the room. If Spectra was so good, then why did they need Growler support in Libya?

raw.png

Where have you seen Growler in day one over Lybia ?

Day one was just Tomahawk, but the Growler was there on day 2(20 March) and forward.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Odyssey_Dawn