Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

[optimist]

And we thought Canada was done chugging the Stupid Kool Aid

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contrib ... ghterjet_s

That's the Canada I know and love.

[playloud]

And we thought Canada was done chugging the Stupid Kool Aid

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contrib ... ghterjet_s

From the article...

The defence department wants Canadians to fear the possibility of a Russian attack: a graphic they issued highlighted the F-35’s range, stating that it can fly “non-stop” from Cold Lake to Inuvik, over 2,200 kilometres. This is the maximum “ferry range” of the aircraft, that is to say, the farthest it can fly without refuelling.

While that may seem impressive, the range of the aircraft depreciates considerably when it’s required to carry weapons (such as air-to-air missiles), or perform an interception. That range is called a combat radius, and the F-35’s is only about 1,400 kilometres. Given the aircraft’s limited range, it’s unlikely they’ll be intercepting anything, unless we build new bases in the Arctic.

Perhaps he needs to learn to math.

If the combat radius is 1,400 km (this is based on the 760 NMi internal A2A combat radius provided my LM). the ferry range cannot be less than 2,800 km.

[ricnunes]

And we thought Canada was done chugging the Stupid Kool Aid

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contrib ... ghterjet_s

That's the Canada I know and love.

To be honest there's guys like that everywhere in the US, in Australia (Carlo Kopp rigs you a bell, eh?), etc...

What matters is that common sense prevailed in Canada among those who matters (government, DND, etc...).

[pushoksti]

This part is simply "hilarious":

Canada does not need the F-35 to defend itself, mainly because no one is threatening us.

He's not completely wrong, the chances of anyone coming over the caps to "invade" Canada by airpower is extremely unlikely. This isn't COD Modern Warefare. Fighters can't just appear out of nowhere and bomb Canadian cities. We need the F-35 for everything else (NATO, NORAD etc), AND homeland defense, be it a military aggression or rando hijacked airliners. We have seen how useless Russia is and China isn't anywhere close to projecting airpower like the US does. The F-35 is the best option for what might happen in the next few decades.

The internal/external fuel load of CF-18 is around 17000lbs, it's a slow bugger, but can still adequately fly north with enough missiles to hold-off any rogue TU-95s. It will still need AAR support, just like the F-35, to go further into the Artic Ocean unless it lands in Inuvik.

[ricnunes]

He's not completely wrong, the chances of anyone coming over the caps to "invade" Canada by airpower is extremely unlikely. This isn't COD Modern Warefare. Fighters can't just appear out of nowhere and bomb Canadian cities. We need the F-35 for everything else (NATO, NORAD etc), AND homeland defense, be it a military aggression or rando hijacked airliners. We have seen how useless Russia is and China isn't anywhere close to projecting airpower like the US does. The F-35 is the best option for what might happen in the next few decades.

Well, I think he is completely wrong.
It's no secret that the Russians claim Arctic space which is also claimed by Canada. It's no secret that the Russians have re-activated major/big bases in the Arctic where we Canada have none. And we all know how far can Russia go to take what they claim!
As such our Canadian Arctic is much less well defenced than the Russian Arctic and the Russians can project much more power into the Arctic than Canadians due to for example, having superior force of Icebreakers and so on. As such the F-35s will be vital to defend the vast and unprotected Canadian Arctic and on top of having a superior range it's also an ISR platform, something which no other fighter is and as such serves much more than intercepting "rogue TU-95s".

The internal/external fuel load of CF-18 is around 17000lbs, it's a slow bugger, but can still adequately fly north with enough missiles to hold-off any rogue TU-95s. It will still need AAR support, just like the F-35, to go further into the Artic Ocean unless it lands in Inuvik.

The drag while carrying that amount of fuel is HUGE and as such the gain in range won't be as big as you might think. The F-35A will still have a quite longer range than the CF-18 in such configuration while the F-35A still retains full combat and performance capabilities.
And yes, the F-35A will of course land on and operate from Inuvik just like the CF-18s currently do. Afterall Inuvik is a RCAF/NORAD Forward Operating Base.

[mixelflick]

Frankly, I'm surprised the F-18 was ever in the running for Canada.

Just to be sure, are you talking about now or back in the 1980's?

Now, although I don't think the F-18 was ever ideal for Canada. Primarily due to its very limited range with a useful combat load, extra weight given its carrier capable requirements etc.. The impression I got is the same as with the US Navy....

They didn't buy the best aircraft for the job. They bought the one they could afford.

[Corsair1963]

Frankly, I'm surprised the F-18 was ever in the running for Canada.

Just to be sure, are you talking about now or back in the 1980's?

Now, although I don't think the F-18 was ever ideal for Canada. Primarily due to its very limited range with a useful combat load, extra weight given its carrier capable requirements etc.. The impression I got is the same as with the US Navy....

They didn't buy the best aircraft for the job. They bought the one they could afford.

Well, at least they made the right choice this time!

[“sandman”]

Until Justin Trudeau is gone, I just can’t take Canada seriously. I immediately think of cars with square wheels, and any other South Park reference to Canada.

Now on the other hand, I wonder what Col. Russel Williams (Wing Commander up at AFB Trenton) thinks of this decision. He was a big supporter of Stealth last I heard.

(Apologies to our Canadian members and Friends here, I couldn’t help it)

[pushoksti]

Until Justin Trudeau is gone, I just can’t take Canada seriously.

It's not trudeau, it's all political parties in Canada. Conservatives had a 4 year majority and didn't do much of anything for the military. Politicians only talk about what Canadians want, Canadians don't care about a military. Period.

[Corsair1963]

Until Justin Trudeau is gone, I just can’t take Canada seriously.

It's not trudeau, it's all political parties in Canada. Conservatives had a 4 year majority and didn't do much of anything for the military. Politicians only talk about what Canadians want, Canadians don't care about a military. Period.

What? The Conservatives signed onto the JSF (F-35) Program. While, Trudeau and his Liberal Party spent the last decade plus trying to kill it...

[diabolicus]

Until Justin Trudeau is gone, I just can’t take Canada seriously.

It's not trudeau, it's all political parties in Canada. Conservatives had a 4 year majority and didn't do much of anything for the military. Politicians only talk about what Canadians want, Canadians don't care about a military. Period.

What? The Conservatives signed onto the JSF (F-35) Program. While, Trudeau and his Liberal Party spent the last decade plus trying to kill it...

I beleive it was the Liberal party who signed onto the JSF back in the day. The conservatives had correctly decided on the f35 as the the replacement for the cf18 but didn't make the buy due to politics. Then Justin made ridiculous promise not to buy the f35 to get elected.

Larger point...both conservatives and liberals have failed the CAF when buying equipment.

[ricnunes]

Now, although I don't think the F-18 was ever ideal for Canada. Primarily due to its very limited range with a useful combat load, extra weight given its carrier capable requirements etc.. The impression I got is the same as with the US Navy....

They didn't buy the best aircraft for the job. They bought the one they could afford.

I have to totally and completely disagree with you on this one.

The F/A-18 was (by far) the best choice for Canada back in 1980. Let's look at the competitors:
- Tornado -> It was hugely inferior in air-to-air role than the F/A-18 and in air-to-ground it's debatable who was the best back then. In 1982 when the Canadian F/A-18 (CF-18) entered in service only the Tornado IDS (air-to-ground variant) existed and the Tornado ADV (air-to-air variant) would only enter in service quite later in 1985. As such and if Canada selected with the Tornado it would need to order two very different variants of the aircraft, Tornado ADV and Tornado IDS which are basically two different aircraft.
- Mirage F1 -> This is not even debatable. The F/A-18 was superior in every possible way.
- F-15 -> while potentially better in air-to-air roles than the F/A-18, the Canadian Forces also needed that its new fighter aircraft was to be fully capable in air-to-ground roles in order to operate in West Germany supporting NATO (in air-to-ground roles). And in air-to-ground the F/A-18 was vastly superior to the F-15.
- F-16 -> The only real and possible alternative to the F/A-18. At the time when Canada selected the F/A-18 in 1980 the F/A-18 was superior in air-to-air since it had BVR capabilities while the F-16 at the time didn't. Such BVR capabilities were very important to defend Canada's Great White North. At the same time and at that time, the F/A-18 was also better in air-to-ground roles due to for example having a radar with better/superior air-to-ground modes. The diference in range between both aircraft was/is rather small.

So and with the above and IMO, there's no doubt that Canada made the best decision back then in 1980 when selected the F/A-18 and also the best decision by selecting now the F-35A.

[ricnunes]

It's not trudeau, it's all political parties in Canada. Conservatives had a 4 year majority and didn't do much of anything for the military. Politicians only talk about what Canadians want, Canadians don't care about a military. Period.

What? The Conservatives signed onto the JSF (F-35) Program. While, Trudeau and his Liberal Party spent the last decade plus trying to kill it...

I beleive it was the Liberal party who signed onto the JSF back in the day. The conservatives had correctly decided on the f35 as the the replacement for the cf18 but didn't make the buy due to politics. Then Justin made ridiculous promise not to buy the f35 to get elected.

Larger point...both conservatives and liberals have failed the CAF when buying equipment.

Exactly!
It was the Liberals (lead at the time by Jean Chrétien) that signed Canada onto the JSF program.

Moreover and for example, back in the early 1990's the Conservatives made the 'catastrophic' decision to retire the Canadian fleet of CH-47 Chinook helicopters which were badly needed when Canada participated in the Afghan war in the 2000's which forced Canada to hastily procure used CH-47D from US Army stocks and procure new CH-47F.

So pushoksti is correct, all Canadian political parties (namely both Liberals and Conservatives) are responsible for the sore state of the Canadian military!

[Corsair1963]

So pushoksti is correct, all Canadian political parties (namely both Liberals and Conservatives) are responsible for the sore state of the Canadian military!

The Conservatives wanted the F-35 and didn't believe a fighter competition was in the interests of Canada. As the F-35 would have just ended up winning anyways. So, why waste the money and just delay the program further? Yet, Liberals used that as a "Weapon" against the Conservatives. Making it look like they had something to hide and the fix was in.....further that the whole process was corrupt! So, the Conservatives ended up back peddling some because of it.

In the end the Liberals used the whole issue as a weapon to win power. Which, worked.......remember during the election and after. They said they wouldn't buy the F-35.

So, for some to blame the Conservatives just as much as Liberals for the delays over these many years is frankly laughable.

[diabolicus]

For me there is too much politics when it comes to the CAF. Years of neglect by both parties has left it currently under equipped and now a shortage of personnel and poor recruitment.

As for the f35 procurement the conservative approach was sensible as they identified stealth was a requirement...but did a real poor job communicating to the public why the f35 was the right choice.

Stephen Harper was overconfident he would be re elected so calling a vote to increase his power backfired. In the end as a democracy huge procurement projects should have competitions.

Even after the Trudeau F-35 debacle we are ending up with a better version of the F35 at a lower unit purchase price and more jets. That's a W for Canadians IMO.

Historically governments have purchased big military items but at real cheap prices. Some times it works out ie leopard 2 tanks and sometimes it dosent ie shitty used subs from the royal navy.

Canadians have been conditioned since young to think the world needs peace keepers and war is to be avoided and not planned for. Big brother USA will always protect us so we should spend our money on other things.

Lest we forget is important reminder why war should be avoided. Ukraine is a reminder of what happens in real life. Canada can and should do better to protect itself and be able to live up to its various membership commitments.