Finnish DefMin interested in F-35s, not Gripens

[steve2267]

"Only 1/2B €". The entire military budget of Estonia for 2021 is 748M €. Fast jets are not for the Baltic states.

Thank you for that comment -- put's things in better perspective for me.

[barrelnut]

Yeah, I'm pretty excited ATM. I'm old enough to remember well the DX competition which selected F/A-18 to be the Draken successor in 1992, and I also was watching at the Tampere Airport when the first two Hornets landed in Finland in 1995. And I'm also probably old enough not to care (or to be alive) when the F-35 successor will be selected in the 2050's.

From now on, the selection of weapon systems to be purchased in future years will be in the focus, and I'm sure plenty of good argumentations, debates and fights will ensue out of that.

Will the AIM-260 be available to non-US customers, and if so, when?
Will Finland purchase JSM or JASSM-ER, or both for different roles?
What about the Meteor, would it make sense for Finland if the AIM-260 is not available?

[martingale]

Eurofighter and Rafale didn't make it into the final performance review. They failed pass/fail evaluations. Interesting because I would have thought that F-35 is the most likely candidate to have problems in P/F evaluations. Were Typhoon and Rafale too expensive or what were the reasons for their disqualification? Any educated guesses?

Gripen made it into the final stage of evaluation. I would say it's good news for Gripen although of course they were aiming to win the whole competition.

[hkultala]

Eurofighter and Rafale didn't make it into the final performance review. They failed pass/fail evaluations. Interesting because I would have thought that F-35 is the most likely candidate to have problems in P/F evaluations. Were Typhoon and Rafale too expensive or what were the reasons for their disqualification? Any educated guesses?

Gripen made it into the final stage of evaluation. I would say it's good news for Gripen although of course they were aiming to win the whole competition.

The pass/fail parts were about
1) total cost and number of planes (my suspicion: EF typhoon too expensive for full 64 planes)
2) industrial coperation (my suspicion: france did not want to give enough manufacturing to finland)
3) security of supply

Sweden/SAAB has been very willing(desperate) to give all kind of gripen manufacturing deals, so they would not fail the industrial cooperation part.

And with Super Hornet, probably similar deal than we(Finland) had for the classic hornet manufacturing would have suited Boeing well.


But it would look like our generals and ministers did good bargaining, and the iterative bargaining model model worked well. And Lockheed-Martin was serious about selling F-35 to finland so (probably after some iterations?) they managed to make on offer that fulfilled the pass/fail parts, whereas Dassault and Bae/EF consortium failed to make such offer even after few iterations.

[hythelday]

Eurofighter and Rafale didn't make it into the final performance review. They failed pass/fail evaluations. Interesting because I would have thought that F-35 is the most likely candidate to have problems in P/F evaluations. Were Typhoon and Rafale too expensive or what were the reasons for their disqualification? Any educated guesses?

Gripen made it into the final stage of evaluation. I would say it's good news for Gripen although of course they were aiming to win the whole competition.

I am guessing @hkultala was watching the press-conference:

EF Typhoon and Rafale did not pass the minimum requirements related to price, maintenance or security of supply (or number of planes) .

Rafale and Eurofighter both being more expensive to buy and opwrate is not news, the Swiss said the same.

My guess 2nd best result was from Boeing. Shame Rafale didn't make it to the scorecards, would have loved to see it compared to Super Hornet + Growler

[magitsu]

It seems that the usual F-35 Global Support System will be reinforced by creating critical condition and maintenance capabilities for Finland in the Defense Forces and domestic industry organizations.

The official acquisition decision:
https://valtioneuvosto.fi/paatokset/paa ... 8f8077d4c9

The F-35A bid passed the intermediate stages of the decision-making model: security of supply, life cycle costs and industrial cooperation.

Taking into considering the 2030s operating environment requirements, the F-35A system proved to be the best in the military performance comparison. The system capabilities for combat, mission survivability and intelligence were the best in the comparison. The capability is available within the planned schedule. During the 30 years of expected operation, the F-35A offers the best future development potential.

The result was affected by the air combat capability of the F-35A multipurpose fighters, the ability to shape
the battle space and the number of fighters and armament in the bid. The F-35A was the best in the comparison
in the mission areas and got the best overall score from the war game.

[hkultala]

Official records of the government decision meeting (in finnish, but google translate probably works somewhat )

Abstract part as web page:
https://valtioneuvosto.fi/paatokset/paa ... 8f8077d4c9

Official decision document, includes lots of cost calculations:

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/delegate/file/99123

Memo from the ministry of defence recommending , contains most of the reasoning why F-35A:

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/delegate/file/99124

The commerial terms of the acquisition agreement:

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/delegate/file/99125

[joost]

Wooohoooo!!!! Another Top air force buying the F-35. Happy days!
Congrats to Finland!

[magitsu]

The GSS mod specifically:

The maintenance concept provides the required level of normal and exceptional operating conditions, independent operation, product support and reliability. The maintenance concept is based on the F-35A Global Support Solution (GSS), where the capabilities for stand-alone operation and maintenance required by security of supply requirements are created in Finland.

The procurement and management of spare parts and replacement equipment is carried out as a common pool procedure for users. Special arrangements corresponding to Finland's needs will be created for the GSS arrangement below as described.
The GSS arrangement includes spare parts and replacement equipment warehouse located in Finland allowing normal operation. In addition, a separate emergency spare parts and replacement equipment warehouse will be located in Finland, which will be under sovereign national control and used exclusively by Finland.

The GSS scheme includes a global network of workshops, which currently consists mainly of workshops in the United States and partner countries, but the network is expanding as the number of fighters increases. Industry in all user countries has the opportunity to compete for repair work. In contrast to the existing GSS scheme, critical maintenance and upkeep capabilities are created into the defense forces and domestic industry organizations.

[steve2267]

Sweden was sneaky.

They never wanted to sell Gripen E's. Not really. They kept local employment up by suckering Brazil into purchasing the E. And now that they snookered Finland into buying F-35... with 52 Panthers to the west, and 64 Panthers to the east... (not to mention 27 to the southwest and 32 due south) Sweden can retire all it's Gripens, reduce it's taxes and see it's citizens' earning power go up! Brilliant!

[sunstersun]

""The F-35 was consistently good in all the tasks that Finland requires of it. "The technological lead was clear and dizzying"

-Airforce Chief

[spazsinbad]

From magitsu post on last page, incase someone missed it.
https://ilmavoimat.fi/en/-/the-lockheed ... le-fighter
The Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II is Finland’s next multi-role fighter. Air Force 10.12.2021 14.37 PRESS RELEASE

AT LAST! ENGLISH! YAY!

[hb_pencil]

The GSS mod specifically:

The maintenance concept provides the required level of normal and exceptional operating conditions, independent operation, product support and reliability. The maintenance concept is based on the F-35A Global Support Solution (GSS), where the capabilities for stand-alone operation and maintenance required by security of supply requirements are created in Finland.

The procurement and management of spare parts and replacement equipment is carried out as a common pool procedure for users. Special arrangements corresponding to Finland's needs will be created for the GSS arrangement below as described.
The GSS arrangement includes spare parts and replacement equipment warehouse located in Finland allowing normal operation. In addition, a separate emergency spare parts and replacement equipment warehouse will be located in Finland, which will be under sovereign national control and used exclusively by Finland.

The GSS scheme includes a global network of workshops, which currently consists mainly of workshops in the United States and partner countries, but the network is expanding as the number of fighters increases. Industry in all user countries has the opportunity to compete for repair work. In contrast to the existing GSS scheme, critical maintenance and upkeep capabilities are created into the defense forces and domestic industry organizations.

I think I mentioned this a few years ago when people brought up how ALIS's design may be an issue in HX's case - I would also note that the Swiss went further down this path, purchasing several more engines than as normally required.

[spazsinbad]

LM Press Release on FINLAND HX result: https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... ghter.html

[Tiger05]

Congratulations to Finland! 64 F-35s will be a mighty fighter force. Impressive that they are replacing their F/A-18s on a one-for-one basis. Few air forces are able to retain their numerical strength these days.

The biggest loser seems to be the Super Hornet to me. A very bad year for Boeing since they lost three "natural" clients in 2021 (Switzerland, Canada and now Finland, all legacy Hornet operators) while Spain doesnt seem to have any interest in the Super Hornet. Only that hypothetical German order and perhaps the Indian Navy RFP can save them now but time is running out.