Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

[neurotech]

My guess is as good as yours, About Radars performance. But AESA is not immune against Jammers and noise enviroment.

About the APG-82s. That would be the F-15E right? and just how many have been installed right now?

Chances are, the F-15Cs will get the new radar first, as they are tasked as interceptors/CAP jets and most likely to see a dogfight in actual combat, F-15Ds are used more for combat support and training, but are largely common with the F-15C, so they would be done at the same time, or next. The F-15E lags in radar capability as some are not even using (V)1 radar, only the original APG-63, but could definitely use the APG-82 radar.

AESA isn't 100% jam resistant, but its an order of magnitude harder to jam that older PESA radar, especially with a fighter/interceptor self-protection jammer. Ground-Based or hypothetical EC-40 (737), EC-47(767) or EC-25(747). The E-4B, EC-130 & EC-135 have different roles than stand-off jamming of radar. The EB-52H has been cancelled twice, although I think the idea of a larger jet than a EA-18 has merit.

The Russians/Chinese don't seem to have any major airborne escort jammers in service. I would assume that a relatively low-tech but powerful jammer in a IL-76 is practical, and quite possible. The famous F-117 incident did not involve radar jamming, more EMCON techniques to avoid being destroyed.

[haavarla]

The Su-34 can haul a huge stand-off Jammer package.
It has been sighted numerous times with these jammer pods.

And Su-30SM and Su-35S can also carry Jammer pods.

"The SAP-518 is an advanced jamming pod intended for heavy strike fighters such as Russian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MK, and Su-32/34 and Indian Air Force Su-30MKI. Its primary mission is to jam advanced air defenses during ground attack missions imitating electronic signatures of various aircraft while generating false targets within enemy sensors. The SAP-518 covers NATO surface-to-air and air-to-air threats in the G-J bands and is deployed in two underwing or wingtip pods.
Installed on a single aircraft along with the SAP-14 jamming pod is considered similar to the United States ALQ-99 jamming system installed on the EA-6B Prowler and EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft. The electronic warfare system has been developed and manufactured by the Kaluzhsky Scientific Research Radio-Technical Institute (KNIRTI). Its existence was revealed at the MAKS 2009 airshow."

[neurotech]

The Su-34 can haul a huge stand-off Jammer package.
It has been sighted numerous times with these jammer pods.

And Su-30SM and Su-35S can also carry Jammer pods.

So maybe they have some jamming capability in the escort role. What the SAP-518 capability is, we can't be certain, but a quick check mentioned 500W @ 2.4KVA for output. The ALQ-99 can be carried in a set of 4 units on an EA-18. Can a Sukhoi carry 2+ pods without straining the electrical system. The ALQ-99 has a Ram Air Turbine for powering the pods in a EA-18.

I would also comment that their is a reason the EA-6B has 4 seats in it, and the very much more advanced EA-18 has two. We also don't know what the SAP-518 integration with mission systems is capable of. If they are "bolting it on" then its more of a high-power self protection jammer.

The overarching thing point of all this is that it takes a total package to make a combat effective jet. We know almost nothing about the PAK-FA avionics/mission systems other than its based on a Su-35.

[haavarla]

True. They share lots of stuff.. But again lots of new stuff as well. The N050 AESA radar looks hot.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... -aesa.html

I'm so looking forward to MAKS 2013 Airshow. I'm totaly going over there. There should be lots of news and updates around.

[neurotech]

They might also retrofit the PAK-FA AESA onto the Su-35... It currently has a passive electronically scanned array installed.

So it looks like the Su-35 doesn't have the Irbis-E AESA yet. That suggests they don't have an operational AESA fighter radar currently. PESA is not AESA.

Edit: They being the Russians/Chinese, who don't have operational AESA radar yet. The APG-82 is not a huge leap from the APG-79 radar, and relatively mature technology.

Edit: APG-82 IOC during 2014 probably a realistic schedule.

[south]

@ NT and Haavarla

F-15E's are scheduled to be all swapped over to the APG-82 though I havent seen written what the timeline is for IOC/FOC...

They have been flying with that radar on the jets for a couple of years now.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123239542

[haavarla]

South.. why don't you read your own link before posting here..
Its says exactly the same as the link i posted.
Hell just read from official site over at Raytheon i you want.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/apg82v1/

The NPG-82 are installed on a few F-15E, but they are very mych in the test phase of things. It will not be completed until sometime in 2014.

[haavarla]

They might also retrofit the PAK-FA AESA onto the Su-35... It currently has a passive electronically scanned array installed.

So it looks like the Su-35 doesn't have the Irbis-E AESA yet. That suggests they don't have an operational AESA fighter radar currently. PESA is not AESA.

What!?
Who said anything about the N035 being an AESA radar??

The N035 Irbis-E is a PESA Radar(Su-35S), it is a further develop from the N011M BARS radar PESA(Su-30MKI).

The N050 is a AESA radar and will come on the PF.

What's the confusion here?

[neurotech]

@haavaria: Some references say that there is an Irbis-E version that is in fact AESA. This is because a large amount of commonality between newer PESA and early AESA radar. e.g APG-63(V)1 vs APG-63(V)2.

So back to the point of all this; Russia does not have an operational AESA

[haavarla]

I'm not sure about the AESA on the Mig-35, but i think its an proto type as well.

The AESA on the T-50-3 is the first experemental AESA radar of its kind.
On the T-50-4 there is a AESA radar that is much closer to serial production specs.

My guess is that on the next T-50-5 on so on, there will be a standard serial production AESA radar, but they still will have to pass tha State trial, no guessing how long this will take though.

So back to the point, no Russia do not have any operational AESA radar as of now.

[milosh]

What about DIRCM in those two planes?

[nawcadabe]

If I recall, the mig-31 was the first operational AESA radar in the world that has the capability to scan such a vast area. As a matter of fact the plane was built around that radar. So if you think that the Russians do not have a good radar going into their 5th gen fighter then you need to check yourself to the fact that Russia knows what they are going against in the F-22 and bet your ars they are going to have some impressive goodies in their new fighter. Now everyone knows how the f-35 has networking and sensors and a software package that IF it ever pans out by the time all 2,000 f-35's are off the assembly line, what good is it going to do against another STEALTH fighter? You think that the Russians have not come up with ways to spot a stealth fighter such as an f-22? Either way the f-35 will be the bulk of our frontline fighters, there will be HOBS missies in the pak-fa, the us 5th gen aircraft do not have this. And don't say f-35 because if you mount a missile under the wing there is no point in having a stealth fighter in the air. Don't forget the F-35 is not exactly invisible to radar, it may be harder to detect at distance for some radar systems but its design is flawed to the point of not being able to retain the stealth of an f-22. I truly think Russia will be operating its pak-fa well before any f-35 is fit for combat. We shall see.

[KamenRiderBlade]

Not denying that the Russians will probably shove the best AESA radar they can make into the PAK-FA, there's no reason not to given that the PAK-FA will be their new super star plane.

That being said, Stealth vs Stealth, our forces will have the advantage of DACT (Dissimilar Air Combat Training) in F-35 vs F-22 for a stealth vs stealth battle.

All because PAK-FA will probably have HOBS missile, don't think we won't have our HOBS capability with the AIM-120D and AIM-9X fully integrated, tested, and operational for quite a few years by then.

Don't forget we have LOAL for all our missiles too, so it's not like we're giving up our stealth profile when we fight them.

Both sides will be packing weapons in their internal weapons bay, I don't get where you're thinking we would mount weapons on the external hard points in a inital Stealth vs Stealth battle.

Don't forget that the PAK-FA isn't designed with stealth as it's highest priority, they intentionally designed it with agility and manueverability advantages at the cost of certain obvious stealth aspects to their aircraft. It's not a big deal IMO, they choose manueverability over stealth, that's fine, that's a design choice.

I honestly think the F-35 will be fully operational LONG before the PAK-FA even hits LRIP on their end.

They're barely in the first few prototypes still testing out alot of systems.

[KamenRiderBlade]

Don't forget, we have plenty of analyst, spies, and engineers trying to figure out the PAK-FA's stealth profile and ways to detect all 5th gen fighters that will be coming out.

You assume that we're going to sit idly by and let the rest of the world just magically catch up and surpass us.

The US DOD and the rest of the US military will be figuring out every advantage we can take when going up against potential enemy aircraft.

[geogen]

Bottom line... it will more likely depend on the actual Air-Air munitions being employed by each aircraft, the self-protection measures employed and raw numbers of aircraft being launched vs the other guys package, in which this hypothetical 2018 hostile engagement is calculated.

If however the scenario is faced with something like a 4v4, or 8v8 in 2019 (give or take a year), then I hate to say that the F-35 package would probably decide to abort and return to base... unless being escorted by enhanced Golden Eagles or F-22.