164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
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by huggy » 09 Dec 2013, 03:00

Old Iraqi,

It's good to have you on this website. I appreciate the different perspective you bring. I also appreciate the fact that you are able to do it in a language that is not native to your country. :applause:

As for the EF-111 incident, there are plenty more sources than the Wikipedia link I provided. Yes, I'm aware that Wikipedia is fraught with error. But if you do some searching on Western websites, I'm sure you will see what I am talking about.

As I mentioned, I knew of this about a day after it happened, since I was living with the EF-111 crews during the war.

If I can find a copy of the DFC citations that Denton and Brandon were given, I'll post them. But please note: getting a DFC like this requires a lot of proof. There were witnesses, and probably a lot of data from other electronic sources (AWACS, et. al...). In short, the USAF is unlikely to give a DFC to an incident like this unless they were quite positive how it took place.

I understand you have some sources that may not mention this incident. However, being an American, I tend to trust the sources provided from the West, and am skeptical of some Arabic sources from the Gulf War, which have historically been inaccurate.

I certainly do not doubt your sincerity,.... and I appreciate the fact that you have first-hand knowledge of many of the pilots that flew combat in the war. Keep in mind, though, that if that F-1 pilot did not have a wingman, there would probably not be an official Iraqi source that would have first hand knowledge as to how that F-1 was destroyed. In the chaos of the opening days of the war, it simply might have gone missing, and declared a "combat loss". The only witnesses to this event were Americans.

Are the many sources that I know of (and my first hand knowledge) wrong? Maybe they are. But I tend to trust them, based on what I know.


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by mixelflick » 09 Dec 2013, 19:29

I appreciate your perspective too, Old Iraqi.

And I'm open to other perspectives. One thing we all need to keep in mind is winners write the history books. I really enjoy seeing Russian hardware in action, which is why I started this post. The Mig-25/31 are beautiful birds in my book, and I'd love to hear more...


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by old.iraqi.air.force » 13 Dec 2013, 01:29

Huggy and Mixelflick,

I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what I know of that past.

Best regards


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by mixelflick » 13 Dec 2013, 02:39

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what i know of that past.

Can't be easy going from Arabic to English. Your English is better than some Americans brother...


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by southernphantom » 21 Dec 2013, 00:34

mixelflick wrote:
old.iraqi.air.force wrote:I really appreciate the kind words and I hope everyone to stay tuned and don't take my comments such as offend, or attempt to impose opinion, just loved to share part from what i know of that past.


Can't be easy going from Arabic to English. Your English is better than some Americans brother...


Anyone who's read YouTube comments knows this to be true :) :lol:
I'm a mining engineer. How the hell did I wind up here?


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by old.iraqi.air.force » 05 Feb 2014, 23:53

maddog2840 wrote:Collateral damage from the exploding lead MiG-23 downed two of his wingmen and the four was seen exiting the scene and trailing smoke. The USAF/USN has a few doubles in Vietnam. You don't have to shoot them to kill them. An F-4 in Vietnam and an F-15 in Desert Storm used "Maneuvering" as the weapon of choice. In the official chronicle of Air to Air Victories in Vietnam, an RF-4C downed a MiG-17 and in the weapon used column you will find "Centerline Fuel Tank".


Well it took long time to reply because I've been searching for source in English language to you.
So in logic it's possible that occur, but in real life with unique evidence can easily refutes like this allegations.
The Iranian pilots who claimed that they shot down a three MIG-23 in one phoenix missile they're on this TV interview.
The Iranian pilot said it was a few days after the war started probably around at 9 or 930 in the evening!
1.The war started in 22 September 1980 where was no one pace of night vision system owned by Iraqi air force, plus three MIG-23 such a large grope (Who can carry big responsibility for sending three aircraft at night of the Iraqi air force leadership?).
2.The first air raid on Kharg island started in mid of eighties by F-1s and SU-22s "ability to carry the largest amount of bombs and guided bombs.(NEWS
Iraq Reports New Attack On Iranian Oil Terminal
August 26, 1985
Iraq said Sunday that its warplanes raided Iran's huge Kharg Island oil export terminal in the Persian Gulf for the second time in 11 days, dropping tons of bombs to cripple firefighting and repair efforts from the first attack. State-run Iraqi radio interrupted programs to announce the air strike and quoted a military spokesman in Baghdad who said the attack disproved "Iranian claims that Kharg Island is sufficiently protected." Iran said it beefed up defenses on the..
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/keyword/kharg-island).

3.NO SECRET anymore, The MIG-23 was the worst of Russian aircraft in terms of incidents include this common faults is take off the canopy "hud" above the pilot which forcing the pilot to return slowly due to severity of the wind (So how can send this aircraft at night and over the sea!?).
4.The Iranian pilot said that when they were entering the region "of kharg island" he saw a three aircraft on his radar screen about 65 miles away (which is mean northwest kharg island) and flying VERY close to each other at night(Don't forget these MIGs should loaded with bombs) and keep remember we didn't had any night vision equipment at that time,however back to the story: the Iranian F-14A was flying about 25000 to 26000 ft and the Iraqi MIGs was about 30000 ft, Now he fired that legend missile and hit the formation leader "as we understand from the video" and shot down all of them in one shot! But guess what here? in the next morning they have found the three aircraft wreckage on kharg island (just loved to say wow) from 30000 ft about 50 miles from being shot by one hit bring all these aircraft on very small island NO one of them fallen in the sea all of them on the ground (but if you ask me why there is no one fallen in the water the scientific explanation and physicist is to be confirmed kills) while no picture or video or even SN of one of these aircraft!
Image
Enjoy watching this fabricated story,
[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sya-9XDpfiM&feature=youtu.be&t=19m18s[/YouTube]


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by old.iraqi.air.force » 06 Feb 2014, 00:39

ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23
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1604730_216499095220822_428736650_n.jpg


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by oldiaf » 10 Aug 2015, 01:22

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
huggy wrote:I don't recall that,... but I do seem to recall an EF-111 that was trying to evade an Iraqi F-1 during the war, and the F-1 hit the ground.

Dear huggy,
There is no Iraqi Mirage F-1 hit the ground in gulf war 1991 desert storm, actually the Iraqi Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF shot down US EF-111A s/n 66-0023 on January 17-1991 but US claimed that EF-111A s/n 66-0023 was shot down on the 13/14th February, nearly one month after and this not truth, i can guess you relied on media sources such as history channel desert storm dogfights TV program, which is totally wrong, however the story below by the official former Iraqi air force facebook page.
Colonel pilot Nafie Najim Al-Jubouri.
From The former Iraqi Air Force
Born 1964 – KIA 2003
He graduated from the Greek Air Academy in 1986, he was one of the best pilot student at that time, he achieved golden sword award for high skilled performance, he had more than 1300 Flight hours until 2003.
Colonel pilot Nafie Al-Jubouri was just first lieutenant pilot in the Gulf War "Desert storm" who managed to attain one of the aerial victories by the Iraqi Air Force in his Mirage F-1 No 4021 from 79th squadron of IrAF, after midnight of January 17-1991 exactly at 0306 AM, Colonel Nafie scrambled and took off from Saad air base better to know H 2 west of Iraq, flying his Mirage F-1 on the first night of the war in order to root out and shoot-down Coalition aircraft bombing Iraq, when he received target info about U.S EF-111A northwest H 2, the sky of Iraq was totally covered by white lines of fired missiles due to the air combat, And coalition F-15s formations was just in every five miles around, but the Eagles was exhausted in that moment because the Iraqi FoxBat was chasing them, however Colonel pilot Nafie across the darkness of that night with flashing explosions on the ground as well as in the sky and headed directly to intercept the target, and just a few minutes later the U.S EF-111A appeared on his radar screen, after identified the target he confirmed to the Ground Control it's enemy aircraft and request permission to open fire, seconds later he got the permission and simultaneously locked the target and fired single missile type Matra 530 directly toward to the U.S EF-111A, s/n 66-0023, the F-111 tried to Jamming and avoid the missile, but the Matra 530 hit the F-111 in the cockpit sent it to the ground.
RIP to all Warriors fall in that conflict.

This same pilot killed in 2003 war while trying to get airborne with his Mirage from Balad AB but hit high tension wires or some says the external fuel tank hit was not placed well and hit the ground and exploded


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by mixelflick » 13 Aug 2015, 16:47

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


VERY interesting. I'm open to the possibility our gov't doesn't always tell us the truth? :doh:


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by mixelflick » 13 Aug 2015, 16:47

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
ATFS_Crash wrote:I would like to know what the kill ratio is but I am skeptical of some of the Iranian claims. I was under the impression the AIM-54 was never fired in combat, but I might be wrong/outdated.

I have heard a lot of claims, but a claim is not the same thing as credible confirmation.

I have heard many claims that F-16s and F-15s have been shot down in ATA, but have yet to see any credible evidence that any have been shot down in real ATA combat.

Anybody can make a claim that doesn’t mean it is credible

Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


VERY interesting. I'm open to the possibility our gov't doesn't always tell us the truth? :doh:


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by oldiaf » 13 Aug 2015, 17:17

This alleged downing of F-16 by Syrian MiG-23 is to Israeli AF not USAF


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by arian » 16 Aug 2015, 05:22

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:Here's an IAF F-16 shot down by a MiG-23


Old Iraqi Air Force, as usual, is recycling stuff he reads on Arab defense forums on here. Thus stuff is fake garbage.

In the pictures he shows you can't tell what the aircraft is. It could be anything, from any conflict or scenario imaginable. No evidence of any F-16 involved.

It becomes even more obvious that this is fake since in the same source he got these pictures from, there's also this other sequence of pictures claiming an F-16 shot down:

Image

The aircraft is very clearly not an F-16, but a MiG-21 or Su-17

Even more funny is this sequence supposedly showing a group of MiG-23s shooting down an A-4
Image

Take anything OIAF says with a mountain full of salt.


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by arian » 16 Aug 2015, 05:34

Here's some more fakes from the same source: supposed F-15 shot down (looks like the HUD shot is from an Su-25 and the F-15 is photoshoped in)

Image

Here is where the pictures first appeared, and the people in the forum recognized them as fakes: http://forums.airforce.ru/holodnaya-voi ... ografii-7/

A couple of years later they were picked up by Arab military forums, and now they ended up here on F-16.net forum.

Confirmed fakes.

PS: This is the second time OIAF has posted fake photos claiming them to be something else.


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by oldiaf » 16 Aug 2015, 09:59

While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985


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by arian » 16 Aug 2015, 12:18

oldiaf wrote:While the alleged F-16 photo clearly shows no F-16 ... The plane could be anything but most probably a Su-22 or MiG-23 or even a Tornado ... The last photo of the F-15 .. Well I think there is one F-15 in it ..and remember Israel denies these alleged downing except for an F-15 that have been heavily damaged by MiG-21 I think that happened in 1985


They are all fakes created by a known Russian science fiction writers who spreads these things around. The same source created this other supposed F-111 being shot down, using the same Su-25 HUD display as in the photo above:
Image

All fakes. None of this stuff happened at all.


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