F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 21:28

marsavian wrote:
F-15EX just takes a different approach to survivability, EW rather than stealth, like the Gripen-E. It's a crude way of doing it as you will announce your presence every time with your RCS. However F-15EX will able to jam not just from its AESA but from specific transmitters in EPAWSS giving it 360 jam capability so it's evolved beyond the legacy F-15E.



People have spent years on this very forum telling everyone that simply won't cut it.

Hell, Bill Sweetman got Brutalized all over the internet for suggesting exactly what you just said.
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botsing

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 21:59

XanderCrews wrote:
marsavian wrote:
F-15EX just takes a different approach to survivability, EW rather than stealth, like the Gripen-E. It's a crude way of doing it as you will announce your presence every time with your RCS. However F-15EX will able to jam not just from its AESA but from specific transmitters in EPAWSS giving it 360 jam capability so it's evolved beyond the legacy F-15E.



People have spent years on this very forum telling everyone that simply won't cut it.

Hell, Bill Sweetman got Brutalized all over the internet for suggesting exactly what you just said.

I think in psychology this is called radical acceptance, it's when you stop fighting reality and accept things just the way they are. Since accepting does not mean the same as agreeing it also makes you look for (bizar) ways to rationalize those things you see happening around you.
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marsavian

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 22:10

So the F-35 uses its AESA to jam one F-16 from another and that's considered great yet the F-15EX is not given the same lattitude to be able to protect itself in a similar fashion ? Are Growlers are a waste of time too ? 5th generation is basically a marketing term that LMT uses to promote sales but it should not be adopted by others as a faith based religion not allowing any critical analysis of other airplanes qualities.
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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 22:35

marsavian wrote:So the F-35 uses its AESA to jam one F-16 from another and that's considered great yet the F-15EX is not given the same lattitude to be able to protect itself in a similar fashion ? Are Growlers are a waste of time too ? 5th generation is basically a marketing term that LMT uses to promote sales but it should not be adopted by others as a faith based religion not allowing any critical analysis of other airplanes qualities.

The F-35 can jam an F-22, can an F-15EX? Not all AESA based jammers are equal.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 00:27

marsavian wrote:So the F-35 uses its AESA to jam one F-16 from another and that's considered great yet the F-15EX is not given the same lattitude to be able to protect itself in a similar fashion ? Are Growlers are a waste of time too ? 5th generation is basically a marketing term that LMT uses to promote sales but it should not be adopted by others as a faith based religion not allowing any critical analysis of other airplanes qualities.



Growlers are a fundamental waste of time since they can't get close enough to perform backlobe or
sidelobe jamming and HOJ + STAP will defeat mainlobe jamming. About their only utility is raising
the noise floor against passive systems or deception jamming against passive systems that use
things like WiMAX which any reusable drone could do.

And the weight and drag of the NGJ prevents the Growler from hitting its range minimum particularly
if carrying AARGM-ER.

There's an F-16I debris field in Northern Israel that suggests that the F-15EX approach to survivability isn't.

'5th generation' was a taxonomy invented by RAND in the mid-90's that DOD adopted; Lockheed uses
the terminology used by its customer.
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marsavian

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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 01:28

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
marsavian wrote:So the F-35 uses its AESA to jam one F-16 from another and that's considered great yet the F-15EX is not given the same lattitude to be able to protect itself in a similar fashion ? Are Growlers are a waste of time too ? 5th generation is basically a marketing term that LMT uses to promote sales but it should not be adopted by others as a faith based religion not allowing any critical analysis of other airplanes qualities.

The F-35 can jam an F-22, can an F-15EX? Not all AESA based jammers are equal.


I would suspect so. EPAWSS is later technology than AN/ASQ-239 both made by BAE. The APG-82 is being upgraded for EW/EP*. The biggest problem though is efficacy when it comes to self-protection, jamming is a lot more effective when your RCS is tiny.

* https://www.dacis.com/budget/budget_pdf ... 4F_190.pdf

These development efforts include F-15 Radar Enhancements Electronic Protection (EP) capabilities. The Radar Enhancements (EP) will upgrade the digital Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar capabilities to counter sophisticated electronic threats. Suite 7C introduced EP into the C/D-model fleet. Initial EP capability for APG-82(V)1 equipped E model aircraft took place in Suite 8E. Suite 9 and beyond will add additional EP capability to both the F-15E and F-15C.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 03:02

marsavian wrote:I would suspect so. EPAWSS is later technology than AN/ASQ-239 both made by BAE. The APG-82 is being upgraded for EW/EP*. The biggest problem though is efficacy when it comes to self-protection, jamming is a lot more effective when your RCS is tiny.



The biggest problem is that you can't realistically perform angle deception jamming with anything
onboard; there's a limited supply of towed and expendable decoys since a capable
opponent will happily bracket your escape zone with enough active missiles to secure
a kill against a very expensive fast jet carrying very expensive weapons.

And of course there's no thermal signature reductions possible on the F-15 and as events
over Yemen showed, flares are of little use against IIR seekers.
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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 04:19

marsavian wrote:So the F-35 uses its AESA to jam one F-16 from another and that's considered great yet the F-15EX is not given the same lattitude to be able to protect itself in a similar fashion?


I think its a little more than that...

Are Growlers are a waste of time too ?


No, especially as they are A. powerful Dedicated jammers. and B. Critical to the Super Hornets and other non LO platforms.



5th generation is basically a marketing term that LMT uses to promote sales


Bill Sweetman kept making this claim, and dared anyone to challenge him on it. He was obliged and promptly slapped on the peepee at secret projects forum.

Turns out its more than a marketing term and LM didn't invent it.

but it should not be adopted by others as a faith based religion not allowing any critical analysis of other airplanes qualities.


I don't think its "faith based" 5th generation is a real thing, and many people in uniform including the USN which has the highest number of 4.5 gen fighters and jammers in the US military has said when that 5th generation gets the go in A2AD environments. The Hornets will be kept back until later.


My issue is, people on this very forum, not occasionally but for YEARS said it was 5th generation or bust.

SH has "balanced survivability" and its cheaper= No go its not a 5th gen F-35

F-15 Silent Eagle and its cheaper= No go its not a 5th gen F-35

Gripen E uses electronics and jamming rather than LO for survivability and its cheaper = No go its not a 5th gen F-35

Rafale with SPECTRA electronics and jamming rather than LO for survivability and its cheaper = No go its not a 5th gen F-35

Typhoon uses electronics and maneuver rather than LO for survivability and its cheaper = No go its not a 5th gen F-35

F-15EX uses electronics and jamming rather than LO for survivability and its cheaper= Cool beans man this could really work and its cheaper than the F-35 too. damn we should get some of these for Canada too and probably Israel you don't really need 5th generation exclusively

Image

We told so many people on this board they were dead wrong and didn't give them the time of day. The US military has said many times on many occasions that 5th generation is not only critical but unparalleled.Do people have any idea how many posts all over the globe went to slapping down the even the suggestion of these 4 Gen retreads with new electronics??
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mixelflick

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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 13:07

I have to agree 100% with everything you said..
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 01:39

Industrial base considerations played role in F-15X decision

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... -decision/

WASHINGTON — When it came time for the U.S. Defense Department to make a decision on which fourth-generation fighter to buy for the Air Force, industrial base considerations — and not acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan — helped tip the scale in favor of Boeing’s F-15X, a senior defense official said Friday.

“There were other things on the table” besides the F-15X, said the official, who disclosed that the Pentagon’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation office drove the department’s decision to procure new fourth-gen planes to replace the Air Force’s aging F-15C/Ds.

But when CAPE, the Air Force and former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis finally agreed on the broad decision to more fourth-gen fighters, “the conversation then turned to: How are we going to maintain a robust industrial base?” the official said during a briefing with reporters.

The defense official speaking to reporters on Friday denied that Shanahan had any knowledge of when Boeing or any of its platforms was being considered during budget deliberations, though Shanahan was aware that discussions were happening broadly about the optimum mix of fifth-generation jets — like the F-35 — and fourth-gen platforms, which can include Boeing’s F-15 as well as Lockheed Martin’s F-16.

“CAPE ran the program budget review” that assessed whether to buy new fourth-gen jets, the official said.

“Working with the standard of conducts office, we put in place a pretty strict regime of keeping anything related to Boeing out of his purview during the program budget review process,” he added. “He was involved in broad capability discussions or broad force shaping discussions, [but] when it came to any specific platform that involved Boeing, those conversations were held strictly away from him.”

So why did CAPE push so strongly for buying additional fourth-generation jets?

The official pointed to two major factors. First was the need for additional capacity.

The average age of the F-15C/D fleet is 35 years, with some aircraft nearing the end of their service lives. FY20 budget documents note “SERIOUS structures risks, wire chafing issues, and obsolete parts” and add that “readiness goals are unachievable due to continuous structural inspections, time-consuming repairs, and on-going modernization efforts.”

CAPE considered accelerating procurement of the F-35, which in FY20 is limited to 48 units. However, its cost analysis — which pegs the cost of each F-15X at about $90 million for the aircraft and spares — found that F-35 operations and maintenance costs outweigh that of fourth-gen planes like the F-15, the official said.

The second argument in favor of buying new fourth-generation planes is that the national defense strategy establishes the need for both stealthy tactical aircraft that can penetrate into a contested zone, as well as planes with large payloads that can launch ordnance from standoff distances, the official said.

Out of the Air Force’s inventory, the F-15 in particular has that as a selling point. Of all the service’s fighters, it can carry the largest payload.
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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 02:13

If you want to improve the industrial base then allow Boeing to build a trainer...
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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 03:31

marsavian wrote:Industrial base considerations played role in F-15X decision


The term "industrial base" was used because journalists don't know what that really means under the FAR.
There are very strict conditions under which you can invoke it and it all has to be in the process of
a formal solicitation.
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 11:09

If Trump rather than Shanahan is the real invisible hand behind this it maybe more difficult to stop.
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marsavian

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 12:05

Saudi Red Flag Involvement Gives USAF Glimpse of Advanced Eagle

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -eagle?amp
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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 12:41

marsavian wrote:Saudi Red Flag Involvement Gives USAF Glimpse of Advanced Eagle

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -eagle?amp


Thanks for the link, but I feel the headline was misleading. I was hoping to read about how the USAF was so impressed with its capabilities OR surprised how despite all the new bells and whistles, it still can't survive in a heavily contested environment. Nothing of the sort I could see..

Well, at least we know the real reason why the F-15X is being looked at: Keeping up the industrial base. But I'm still perplexed: Why is the USAF interested in 2 seat F-15EX's, if the immediate need is to replace F-15C's? The F-15E fleet is a lot younger than its gray brother, and supposedly the Super Eagle with all new glass cockpit etc. wouldn't require a 2nd crew member. Plus, adding another body = more expensive. A LOT more expensive.

What gives?
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