Question regarding Continuous Computed Impact Point (CCIP)

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KAIS

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Unread post22 Jan 2007, 18:55

Hello everybody,
I have 2 questions related to CCIP (continuous computed impact point)

1. Is this system worls when the aircraft climbs or just when the aircraft is in a straight level flight.

2. In CCIP the target is identified by a radar, so if i was flying for example before a mountain (where i want to release the bomb) and my target is behind the moutain, did the radar get it and display it on the CCIP HUD or it will cannot identify it because of the mountain.

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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post22 Jan 2007, 20:32

1) Works when climbing, diving, turning, level, etc. Has to be selected first thru the SMS with Master Arm either in ARM or SIM. If no bombs are loaded, it must be in SIM to get the symbology.

2) IIRC, the impact point (the pipper) is not automatically caged or locked onto any INS steerpoint/radar aimpoint. It's Continuously Computed, which means you can designate any ground point you can see by putting the pipper over the point and pressing and holding the pickle button. Keep the bomb fall line centered and CCIP does the rest. Since CCIP uses radar-to-ground line-of-sight to compute an accurate impact point, there can't be any large land mass obstructions between the radar and the intended target. Otherwise the release computations will be skewed. (i.e. you have to be able to SEE the aimpoint before designating).

(Janitors: Edit/delete as necessary for OPSEC...Don't think I was too specific but check me anyway... :whistle: )
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 00:43

thank you LinkF16SimDude a lot, from what you are saying i can reasuming that i can use the CCIP for bombing only if i can see the target so the case with mountain does not enable me to use CCIP in all other cases (climb, level flight etc..) i can use it.

But what about GPS? can CCIP use GPS instead of radar to detect the target the i can continure as in usual ase (i.e. i will try to put the pipper on the target?) is this possible or not?

Rgards
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 01:12

As i read, CCRP computer clculated release point is that which use the GPS to identify the target, so if i have an obstacle i cant use CCIP (becasue the radar will not even reach the target) but i can use the CCRP which use GPS?

Am i thinking well??
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 11:57

Hello,

Am i right or wrong in this point of wiew:
For Air-ground attach wile using dumb bombs there are three methods:
- Dive toss ( visual bombing method).
- CCIP ( visual bombing method using radar to identify the target).
- CCRP ( bling bombing method that use the GPS ).

Please answer me if what i have just wright is roght or not.

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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 14:39

Short story:
    CCIP is a VISUAL bombing system that uses radar input to know when to release the weapon for a given aircraft attitude and altitude relative to a visually designated point.
Long story:

    The INS/GPS will only point to a selected coordinate (in this case, the target).

    It will not slew the CCIP pipper to the aimpoint.

    The INS/GPS doesn't care if there's a landmass obstruction between you and the target.

    CCIP does not rely on the radar to tell it where the target is. YOU have to manually designate the spot on the ground you want to drop on (fly the jet to put the pipper on the spot then press and hold the WPN REL button). CCIP uses radar ground returns to calculate where the jet is in relation to the spot you just designated and based on what the radar tells it, it figures out when to release the weapon (it will automatically release the weapon at the calculated release point as long as the WPN REL button is held down). Therefore the radar must have a clear line-of-sight to the intended target for correct release calculations.

    If you cannot see the target but know you have a clear line-of-sight to the target (no obstructing landmasses in the way), you have the option of putting the CCIP pipper on the INS/GPS waypoint symbol in the HUD and drop blind....but you MUST have an accurately aligned INS or else you run the risk of missing wide, long, or short.
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 16:41

Thanks it mke it clear for me, but i still dont know when to use CCRP?
You said that CCIP works with GPS (while i thought that GPS works with CCIP).

Also from what you said i can say that in both cases i cannot use CCIP or CCRP when i have an obstacle between me(the aircraft) and the target, am i right?

Also what about dive toss?

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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 17:25

Salute!

Let's review the history and terms:

CCIP: constantly computed impact point
CCRP: contantly (or continuosly) computed impact point
DTOS: dive toss

*********
CCIP:

So back when the Earth was still cooling, CCIP would use direct radar range by slaving the rdr to the initial pipper. Take a range sample, adjust the pipper. So over roughh terrain you could see the pipper move up and down.

If rdr was off or broke, the system used "system altitude" and tgt elevation you were navigating to. Then it used pythagorean theorem and other stuff to calculate the impact point and portray it. This was what we used in very rough terrain or when we had good tgt elevation data.

It might be that nowadays rdr altimeter is used to "help" system altitude, but will have to ask.

CCRP:

Mainly used for bombing using the ground map rdr display and system altitude for the vertical part of the solution.

Could also be used with no rdr - "bomb on coordinates". We had a sub-mode called VRP, but let's leave that alone.

I am pretty sure the GPS is now well-integrated for CCRP if your rdr is kaput.

DTOS:

Put the doofer on the tgt, rdr takes a range sample, press and hold pickle button and steer out lateral error while pulling up.

As with CCIP, you can use "system altitude" and no rdr.
*********

No classified stuff here, and there are more modes, I am sure, that exploit new sensors and the GPS.

out,

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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 17:43

Well I'm glad someone paged Dr. Gums. :wink:

Gums wrote:CCRP: contantly (or continuosly) computed impact point

Don't you mean "Contantly Computed Release Roint"?

We had a sub-mode called VRP, but let's leave that alone.

I remember the young lads (and later lassies) at Tucson tryin' to figure out VRP deliveries in the sims. 'Twas.......not pretty.

It was always my understanding the GPS constanly updated the INS so that when the target was ultimately designated, the INS could provide a really accurate postion fix (laterally and vertically) from which the particular delivery mode software could start doin' its thing. Or maybe I've just gone completely tumbleweed in the 7 years it's been since I've been around Vipers?
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 20:04

Minor quibble and clarification...in CCIP (or "Death dot") mode, there is no designating of a target. Once the mode is selected, the FCC displays on the HUD where the bomb would hit if dropped at that moment. As terrain changes and flight conditions change, the dot moves. One simply maneuvers the plane to put the dot on the target, and when stable (there can be some computer lag) one simply pickles off the weapon.

CCRP is used to bomb through weather, night, etc when one can't see the target. Typically done in level flight. You tell the aircraft where you want to bomb to hit (by designating or using preset coordinates) and the FCC will steer you to the release line. When you get close, you press the "consent to release" button (same as the pickle button, different mode) and when the predicted fall point crosses the target, the plane lets go of the weapon.

(Old, old memory, so correct me if I am wrong Oh Obi-Gums).
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Unread post23 Jan 2007, 21:20

Roscoe wrote:...Once the mode is selected, the FCC displays on the HUD where the bomb would hit if dropped at that moment. As terrain changes and flight conditions change, the dot moves. One simply maneuvers the plane to put the dot on the target, and when stable (there can be some computer lag) one simply pickles off the weapon.

But if you were high enough and could designate early, you could drive along for few seconds (with the vector centered on the bomb fall line of course) and eventually a release cue would march down the line. When the cue met the vector, bomb's away.

If down in the dirt (1.5K AGL or lower) the release was almost instantaneous after mashing the pickle button IIRC.

I have been known to be fulla BS tho. :wink:
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Unread post25 Jan 2007, 00:02

Salute!

Sorry Roscoe, but Link-breath is correct about CCIP.

Also it's "constantly" or "continuously", so I had a quick typo!! BEAM ME BACK TO THE MOTHER SHIP!!!

If you are beyond the ballistic capabilities of the bomb at your existing dive angle and speed and range to the target, pressing the pickle button in the CCIP mode with the "death dot" on the tgt will present you the ol' lateral steering line and a release cue that marches down from the top of the steering line towards the flight path marker.

The VRP mode, which was hard to use but neat in concept, allowed you to use a huge offset from a landmark or whatever to the tgt, then aim at it and the system would compute a reasonable steering and release cue to use. In the radar modes like CCRP, we could do the same thing usng the 'dar versus the visual aiming index to designate the offset point.

Funny, but we would try to see how far we could toss an egg. So using VRP and decent topo maps we would try, heh heh. About 3-4 miles is best we ever got with a MK-82 or the 25-pounder. With GPS, I bet we could get better accuracy with pure CCRP noadays. Hardest thing in the Viper was that it used "time-to-go" versus "range-to-go" as the A-7D system did. So if you waited until the release cue was below the FPM, then the bomb went when you pickled. In the SLUF, we could wait until the release cue was below the FPM, then pull up with the button down and the bomb would go when the required computed range equaled measured or calculated range. Hence, we could release at very high angles (above 45 deg) or do an "over the shoulder" release for nukes and such.

later,

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Unread post25 Jan 2007, 15:33

Gums wrote:Salute!

Sorry Roscoe, but Link-breath is correct about CCIP.

Ladies and gents, boys and girls, you'll pardon me while I pause to mark this day on the calendar as the day that yours truly officially joins Master Obi Gums' elite "Breath Club"! :applause: :beer: :cheers:

I....(sniff)....just never thought this day would come!.....(sniffle, snort)... :thanks:
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Unread post27 Jan 2007, 23:18

Salute!

Only rational, hard-working, dedicated, knowledgeable and friendly (especially friendly) folks get the "-breath" suffix.

OTOH, remember one of the main rules:

It takes 10 Gums' "attaboys" to equal one Gums' " aw sh&%$(".

For a sim geek, Link-breath seems OK to this old fart.

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Unread post29 Jan 2007, 11:44

Salut
I undestand that i can use CCIP CCRP and DTOSS when i want to use dumb bombs, but what about STRF mode is it also use for dumb bombs or somthing another?

Nother question, can CCIP CCRP DTOSS also be used for missiles or rockets or smart bombs?

Regards
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