Norway to reduce F-35 order?

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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Unread post25 Jun 2019, 12:35

optimist wrote:
steve2267 wrote:What Spaz said... what did Col Burke say? Reference / link(s) please.

When it was being offered to australia, before the ban. Those that are in the know at the time. Said that there is high tech in the f-22. It isn't the reason why it isn't exported. Aussies have access to higher tech than is in the f-22. We have exchange pilots flying the f-22. Some may recall at the time, there were serious structural issues and talk of the US moving away from the EU and US vs Soviet era weapons. It also came down the the US being able to guarantee the support for the F-22, over the life of foreign sale. We had the F-111 experience. For us, the F-35 was seen as a better option. The rest is politics.

It is as reported and as spaz said, there are no anti tamper features built in and as such the tech is vulnerable and not for general distribution. Uk would have been possible, I doubt whether Japan would have got it, anyway. Even though it was desired by them. His reference to 'even' Israel not being offered it, as if it meant something. Israel would have also been low on the list.

I gave my opinion as to why I think the F-22 wasn't exported: It has "something" to it that the F-35 doesn't. You don't like that? Too bad. You're anger is quite telling, and belies the fact there's something very wrong with you, given you can't handle people with an opinion different than yours. Let me guess, you're a liberal...
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Unread post23 Jul 2019, 10:15

I dug mined Norwegian news. 8) (Post will be longer. In advance, I apologize. :notworthy: )
Norway seems quite active in the F-35 news.

Probably, I think these are any the news that has never posted to (If it has been posted, I'm sorry.)
All Norwegian. I used Google Translate.

I picked it all up from here.
Norway Official F-35 Special Site.
Norway Ministry of Defense F-35 page. ... /id474117/

Norway ver F-35 Facts. ... id2353192/
Facts about F-35
Learn more about the various technical solutions in Norway's new fighter aircraft, F-35.
Article | Last updated: 07.11.2017
The F-35 is a so-called multiroll aircraft, which means that it has been built to be able to solve a number of different assignments, both alone and with others. This is also a feature of today's Norwegian F-16, but the F-35 can carry out many more missions without the support of other aircraft or ground stations.

Properties in the air
Norwegian F-16 equipped as a multiroll aircraft. The F-16 must sacrifice a lot of performance in order to carry the necessary equipment to solve multi-role missions. Photo: Morten Hanche
Very often, combat aircraft are described in the form of top speed, engine power, maximum G-load etc. This is relevant data in direct comparisons of different types of aircraft, but has a great weakness: fighter aircraft are mostly sent out on assignments that involve weapons or external systems of one kind or another. To achieve the often described benefits, most combat aircraft must carry minimal weapons and are usually limited to heat-seeking missiles and ammunition for the machine gun on board. An aircraft equipped with both missiles and bombs, extra fuel and sensors, ie multi-roller, will have limited speed and maneuverability in relation to specifications. This applies, for example, to today's F-16. This means that it is very important to distinguish between "theoretical performance" (without weapons and then not capable of performing multi-role missions) and "operational performance" (with weapons).

The F-35 has the ability to carry weapons and fuel internally. This contributes to the aircraft getting considerably better range than previous aircraft due to less air resistance. In relation to today's Norwegian F-16, we estimate that the F-35 will have a full 30% more range with corresponding weapons load. This design also ensures that the F-35 can fly at maximum speed of 1.6 times the speed of sound (Mach 1.6) even with internal weapons. Older aircraft often have tanks and weapons hanging on the wing or abdomen, which results in high air resistance. It again means that it is almost impossible to achieve the performance (primarily speed and G-load) that is often stated for the type of aircraft. The F-35, which has both fuel and weapon load inside the fuselage, thus has reduced air resistance and consequently better acceleration and maneuverability than older aircraft with similar weapons load.

System integration
The biggest advantage of the F-35 lies in the sensors and the other on-board systems. The F-35 has significantly better sensors than previous aircraft, and many more of them - they are also permanently integrated into the aircraft. In addition to being permanently integrated and thus always available, most of the information is compiled from all the sensors and presented as an overall picture to the pilot. Previously, the pilot himself had to activate, control and then analyze the information that came from radar, alert systems and any other systems that might be mounted. On the F-35, all this is gathered in one single image. The pilot can then focus on what is important - solve the mission and make the right decisions.

The most important sensors and systems on board.
AESA radar
Northrop Grumman has developed a new radar specifically for F-35 called APG-81. It belongs to a generation of radars where the radar plate itself does not move. This type of radar is known as AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) and consists of many small radar surfaces that together produce a radar beam that is electronically controlled. Everything is fixed and sealed, which will reduce the need for wear parts and thus maintenance throughout the lifetime. Another advantage of this design is that the radar must now not physically move to point to different targets, either on the ground or in the air. This means that the radar can simultaneously follow several different targets, both in the air and on the ground, and thus gives the pilot much better situation overview. The radar is also built to vary the amount of signals it transmits and steers the beams in the best possible way to avoid being detected and to reduce the ability to manipulate the signals of the opponent's defense systems. It can even use the radar energy to counteract, or "jam" the enemy radar systems, making it even harder to locate the aircraft.

Electro-optical sensors
The F-35 is equipped with two types of fixed electro-optical sensors. The first type is known as the Distributed Aperture System. This consists of six different infrared cameras with very high resolution that are placed around the hull - one in the back, two under the abdomen, one over the nose and two on either side of the cockpit. The system in the aircraft then puts together an overall picture of what the six cameras appear in the helmet of the pilot. When the pilot turns his head, the system shows a picture from the area the pilot sees. That is, if the pilot looks straight down, the helmet shows a picture of the ground below the plane, and not the legs of the pilot. This provides a very good visual situation overview, day and night. The other is the aircraft's electro-optical targeting system, known as EOTS, and located under the nose of the aircraft. This includes a powerful infrared camera that the F-35 can use to find targets both in the air and on the ground. This replaces today's systems worn in their own "pods" on the outside of the aircraft. It also contains a laser measuring device used to control precision-guided weapons against targets on the ground.
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Unread post23 Jul 2019, 10:19

Morten "Dolby" Hanche compares F-35 radar to F-16 radar. ... -anapg-81/
F-35 radar sensors (AN / APG-81)
Posted by Morten Hanche, July 5, 2014
Having become acquainted with the F-35 through many tactical simulations, I would like to share some thoughts about the aircraft's sensors. One of the first things that struck me with the F-35 was how good the situation understanding I was flying in the "cockpit". The overview picture on the screens contained more information than I was used to from the F-16. The information was more accurate and presented in time. This was possible because the F-35's sensors are each better than the F-16. In addition, F-35 has more sensors than F-16. Together, the sensors help to give the pilot very good understanding of the situation - the very foundation of all the pilots' decisions.

The radar in the F-35 is required in all phases of a mission. The radar is built to search for vessels in the air, on land and on the sea. The radar in the F-35 is basically different from that of the F-16. The radar in our Norwegian F-16 moves its field of view by mechanically moving the antenna disc. Electric motors move the antenna disc both horizontally and vertically. The radar can thus alternately switch between different targets. Such radars can use about one second to move the antenna disc between two targets that are widely spaced at an angle.

The radar in the F-35 has no moving parts. The antenna disk is fixedly mounted in the hull, and the radar field of vision is instead controlled electronically by phase shifting the signals. This gives more benefits. For example, such a radar typically uses less than one millisecond - 1/1000 second - to move the radar beam from outside to outer edge of the field of view. Another advantage is increased reliability; no moving parts wear. Finally, it is worth mentioning that the fixed antenna helps make the F-35 less visible to other radars - it helps to make the F-35 stealthy.

The radar in the F-35 - AN / APG-81 - has been tested in the air since 2005 and is now a mature sensor. The performance is robust and cannot be compared with today's Norwegian F-16 radars. AN / APG-81 can follow many goals both in the air and on the surface at the same time. In addition, it is capable of generating high resolution images of the ground. In the F-35 world, AN / APG-81 is called a "Multi Function Array" (MFA) - a multifunction antenna. Maybe that's why. In the future, it is also likely that AN / APG-81 can have new and exciting features. Northrop Grumman, which produces AN / APG-81, already carried out a test between aircraft and ground station in 2007, where the radar was used as a data modem. The transfer rate in the first test was several hundred megabits per second. If our F-35 gets this capacity in the long term, it will be possible to transfer, for example, long video sequences in near-real-time, which again demonstrates the development potential throughout the lifetime of the aircraft.

Morten "Dolby" Hanche comparing the DAS to Radar and UV MAWS. ... re-system/
The sensors in the F-35 - Distributed Aperture System
Posted by Morten Hanche, August 27, 2014
In the previous article, I wrote about how the radar in the F-35 helps build the pilot's understanding of the situation. In this article, I will say a little about the "Distributed Aperture System" (DAS) sensor system, which consists of a set of infrared (heat seeking) cameras mounted around the aircraft. DAS "won" originally its place on board the F-35 to alert missiles that were shot at the aircraft, part of what we call "threat alert." to maneuver the fighter plane in relation to the threat. Threat warning is still a major task for DAS today, but the system also has other functions that will often be so important.

First a little more about how a threat alert system works. Missile alerts have been around for a long time. A challenge for missile alerts is always the compromise between early detection and error alerting - that the missile alert mistakenly classifies something as a threat. Generally, high sensitivity means several error alerts. Such systems will therefore rely on one or more different strategies to be able to notify; radar detection, ultraviolet detection and infrared detection.

Radar sends out and receives radio pulses to find missiles that are heading for the fighter plane. Therefore, radar-based warning systems can detect both hot and cold objects, such as a missile at the end of the flight, when the engine has stopped burning. The radar can also "see" missiles through clouds, which an optical system cannot. Missiles stand out because they keep high speed, and it makes it possible to reduce the number of error alerts. The disadvantage of using radar is that it emits electromagnetic radiation that can be detected or disturbed by an enemy. This fits poorly with the F-35's role as "creeping wool blanket". Furthermore, radar-based missile alerts often provide a sector alert, where the threat is only roughly placed in relation to the fighter plane (such as "rear right" or "front left").

Ultraviolet sensors can pick up the powerful ultraviolet radiation from a burning rocket engine. Such sensors can avoid error alerts because burning rocket engines have distinctive signatures. Another important advantage is that the sensor is passive. The disadvantage is that the threat can only be detected as long as the rocket engine is burning. Long-range missiles often fly most of the flight without engine power; The rocket engine gives the missile a powerful puff to begin with. The rest of the flight is pure gliding. Nor can threats be detected through clouds.

Modern infrared sensors are very sensitive, and they can actually detect both the heat of a rocket engine and the friction heat of the missile's body. Therefore, infrared warning systems can also detect long-range missiles approaching the fighter plane in gliding. The disadvantage of such systems is that they can be overwhelmed with information and give many error alerts, nor can they see through clouds.

DAS consists of six infrared cameras built into the F-35's hull. Each camera covers a wide sector, and together the cameras provide visibility in all directions, which we would call "spherical coverage". The six video slots are digitally assembled into one continuous image, and because DAS stays in every direction all the time, the F-35 is unlikely to detect a missile heading for the fighter plane.

The large coverage area also makes it possible to use the information from DAS for other tasks. DAS helps the pilot in the dark by showing a view from the DAS in the pilot's helmet. This image complements the pilot's night camera, which is built into the helmet. The night camera amplifies existing light and relies on some light to work. DAS also works in dumb darkness - for example, under a cloud cover on a moonless night - because the sensors "look" radiated warmth and not reflected light.

Another example is that the pilot can use DAS as a video camera, which is "pointed" to an interesting target in the air or on the ground, but without the DAS cameras themselves moving on. What varies is which digital slice is shown to the pilot on the screen in the cockpit.

DAS also makes it possible to detect other flying objects - not just missiles. The sensitive cameras detect the heat of other aircraft so that they can also be pointed out to other sensors and the pilot; if the DAS sees an interesting heating signature, the F-35 will instruct the other sensors to examine the same area

In technical tests, DAS has now also been used to locate both ballistic missiles and artillery fire. According to the manufacturer Northrop Grumman (who released the video you can see below), DAS is able to detect where a projectile or ballistic missile was shot from, and categorize what kind of firing is involved. This is not a core role for DAS, but shows what potential this system has.

In other words, DAS is a tool that fills several roles - not just notification of missile shots against F-35. As the F-35 matures, DAS is likely to become a very flexible information collection tool.

Morten "Dolby" Hanche's explanation of HMD. (I do not quote because it's long...) ... vanskelig/ ... en-i-f-35/

Morten "Dolby" Hanche has commented on Red Flag 17 in the past.
F-35 broke the opponents
Published March 1, 2017
The combat aircraft, which Norway receives in the fall, dominated during the world's largest air combat exercise. "The F-35 is a beast," says Norwegian flyer.

With the 20: 1 "kill rate" - that is how many you shoot down for each aircraft you lose yourself - the US Air Force recently dominated the US F-35A Red Flag exercise.

The A model is the same as the Armed Forces will receive, and our first two flights arrive in Norway in November.

One of the Norwegian F-35 pilots, Morten "Dolby" Hanche, is not surprised by the crushing result ..

- With F-35 you will find your opponent long before he finds you. Then you can shoot first and become much more deadly in the air, says Hanche, who daily works in the 62nd Fighter Squadron at Luke Air Force Base in the United States.

The squadron has both Americans, Italians and Norwegians who work together on a daily basis.

Hanche says that the air struggles often become very uneven when the fifth generation F-35 - with its stealth features and advanced sensors - meets the previous generation aircraft, such as F-18 and F-16.

- What we see in exercises against other aircraft is that the fight becomes very uneven and that we have all the benefits. It's rarely the opponent at all getting fired shots before the match is over.

"It's hard to defend against something you don't see," he adds.

Hanche describes an aircraft that is very fast, easy to maneuver and difficult to detect.

- The fight is really over before it has started. While one party is wondering what is happening, our missiles are already on their way. The F-35 is a beast. It's simply raw.

For the opponents, it also means that there is a psychological effect in going up against an "enemy" that is superior technologically.

- The F-35 is a frightening opponent to meet! You can't catch up when you don't know you're in battle.

In addition to being a strength in itself on the battlefield, with its invisibility and superior sensor capacity, F-35 also helps friendly "old" planes to improve.

- The F-35 sensors are good and let us detect an opponent long before, for example, F-16 would. We can share this information with other own forces. Therefore, the F-35 can in practice make other own forces better: F-35 lets them "see" opponents they would not otherwise know, "Hanche says.

"The F-35 can share target data with both air, sea and ground forces," he adds.

There has been a lot of focus on errors and problems along the way in the testing of the new fighter aircraft. This has sometimes frustrated the Norwegian test pilots.

- People have probably had some unrealistic expectations of what is an unfinished and finished product. The whole point of a test period is to uncover the most possible mistakes or things you need to rectify, Hanche explains .

- There has been great openness about the testing of F-35. Therefore, the media has got a lot of "exciting" reading material about the F-35. I think the media has often grasped individual issues, each of which may not be so important. The whole is important.

Hanche says that this is far from new, the new is that Norway has been involved in the process at a much earlier time.

- Then there is nothing perfect, just like that. That's how it was with the F-16, says the experienced pilot with thousands of hours behind the levers, even on the F-16.

- We know much more about F-35 than we did about F-16 when we got it. There came many more rabbits out of the hat later, while now we have been from the start and know what we have to relate to. F-35 has been thoroughly tested to a greater extent than the F-16 was in its time.
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Unread post23 Jul 2019, 10:25

The value of the defense
Published September 17, 2015 12:03. Last updated 3 November 2017 17:20.
These new combat aircraft are among the roughest in the world. The F-35 will do the whole defense better - and Norway more secure.
The defense is in the midst of a major modernization, and the acquisition of F-35 is a central part of this modernization. The new combat aircraft will be a decisive capacity that opens up a wealth of new possibilities for the Armed Forces.

Enhanced sensors and systems enable us to monitor Norway's vast land and sea areas faster and more efficiently. We will also get a better understanding of the situation. This will make the Armed Forces even better able to assert Norwegian sovereignty and security policy interests.

Since 1980, the F-16 was a decisive capacity for the Norwegian Armed Forces, and soon they will be redeemed by the F-35. But the new fighter planes are far more than a replacement for today's hunting aircraft - it is a whole new system that takes the Armed Forces into a new era. Compared with F-16, F-35 will be far better assets to contribute in the future defense of Norway.

The F-35 has all of the fuel tanks, weapons and sensors inside the aircraft. Even with cargo it will fly faster, more powerful and longer than most other similar combat aircraft on the market today. The F-35 also has systems and sensors that make the aircraft superior in air combat.

The first F-35 land in Norway November 3, 2017, and the first two years, the Armed Forces must test and evaluate combat aircraft thoroughly in Norwegian weather and climate conditions. In addition, several departments and academic environments in the Armed Forces must know the new fighter system, and find their role in the new combat aircraft concept.

From 2019, the new combat aircraft will take over tasks from F-16. The F-35 fleet will be fully operational by 2025 .

Kampflya has an advanced system that collects and digests all data and measurements from the sensors. The aircraft thus creates a ready-made image that gives the pilot a superior understanding and overview of the situation. This can be used by the pilot for his own benefit to win an air battle.

With F-35, Norway is getting tougher and quicker when it comes to expressions and cut-offs in the north. The sensors make sure that the F-35 will find, follow and identify other aircraft from far greater distances than today. The F-35 can also do this job without discovering other aircraft.

Many of our most important allies and partners have also bought F-35. One common fighter aircraft system will therefore make many more international air operations and other military cooperation much easier and more effective in the future.

Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 1 ... e-red-flag
Norwegian fighter pilots in the world's hottest air exercise
During the Red Flag air exercise in Las Vegas, Norwegian F-35 pilots are given the roughest fighting skills that can be driven.
PUBLISHED MARCH 18, 2019 10:00 .
NEVADA, USA: Exercise Red Flag offers the most demanding, extreme and complex operations we can do, says Lieutenant Colonel Martin "Tintin" Tesli.

He is one of Norway's most experienced F-35 pilots with nearly 400 hours behind in Norway's new multi-role combat aircraft. Despite the experience, the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada has offered intense flights.

"I've been sweating a lot in the cockpit, to put it that way, and that's because of the complexity of the exercise," he says.

For the past four years he has been Norwegian chief of Luke Air Force Base in Phoenix, where Norwegian pilots are trained and certified to fly F-35. Red Flag takes the training a notch further.

- At Luke we learn to fly, at Red Flag we learn to fight.

Red Flag is a regular air exercise that is conducted 4–6 times a year and was started based on the experiences the Americans made in the Korean War and the Vietnam War. This edition started March 8 and runs until March 22. F-35 participates for the third time, but this is the first time foreign F-35 pilots are involved. And Norway is from the start.

- This gives us incredibly important experience that we can bring back directly to Norway, says Tesli.

According to the plan, Norwegian F-35 will have operational capabilities within some capacities at year-end. The proceeds from the exercise are therefore worth gold in the build-up of the Norwegian fighter aircraft system in the future, says Tesli.

During the exercise the participants are put on all imaginable samples. Here it is an adversary team with experts on the tactics and operation patterns of real opponents. In addition, the pilots face real challenges in the gigantic training field in the desert north of Las Vegas - not just hostile aircraft, but also air defense, GPS jamming and other electronic warfare. This makes the exercise so close to a real operation one can come.

"When we then send our people into real operations, they have already experienced the most extreme things they can do," said Tintin.

Tintin has participated in Red Flag earlier, but then as F-16 pilot. He boasts of F-16, but with the F-35, the exercise is a completely different world. New and sophisticated sensors provide a completely different view, and also impresses the aircraft's stealth features - the ability to operate without being detected by the opponent.

- Stealth is one of the most important features of the F-35, and here we are tested. Now I'm back on Red Flag with the hottest we have, and we can do so much more, says Tesli and adds:

- I'm surprised at how extremely good the F-35 system is. I've always known that it's good, but not so good. The airplane has surprised me positively, here I am almost religiously convinced, chuckling the fighter pilot.

Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 2 (I will omit.)

Norway's Red Flag 19 Part 3 ... rane-igjen
F-35 knocks opponents - again
Norway's new combat aircraft deliver better and better in air combat.
PUBLISHED JUNE 27, 2019 16:02 .
Norwegian fighter pilots shone during the US Air Force Red Flag in March. But it also did flya, because the F-35A delivered better in air combat than anyone did earlier. In a letter to the US Congress, signed by 128 retired generals, the plane gets its "kill rate" under practice stated at 28: 1. This means that the F-35 shoots down 28 aircraft for a quarter of an aircraft itself.

Two years ago, the same rate was 20: 1. Norway's new combat aircraft has thus become even more superior in combat. Martin "Tintin" Tesli is Norwegian manager at Luke Air Force Base and one of the country's most experienced fighter pilots. He participated in the practice, but cannot confirm whether the hit rate is correct. Anyway, he is aware that the F-35 is a superior combat aircraft.

- I am surprised at the extremely good F-35 system. I have always known that it is good, but not that it was so good, Tesli says.

Tesli was among the Norwegian aircraft that participated in the last Red Flag. The US air exercise is halved 4–6 times a year, but in March, foreign F-35 airmen participated for the first time.

Exercise is one of the largest and most advanced in the world.

- I have sweated a lot of cockpit to say that, and that's because of the complexity of the exercise, Tesli says and adds:

- Red Flag has changed our understanding of how a fifth generation combat aircraft will work in a conflict. It has once again changed our approach to how we should train in order to utilize the superior capacity we have, best possible.

He is supported by his colleague "Sigurd" who also participated in Red Flag this spring. He is impressed with the choir's good F-35 delivered during practice.

- I have been impressed with F-35 earlier, but after Red Flag I understand quite well because this is the best of what Norway can buy from fighter aircraft, "Sigurd" says and add:

- I have become even more fond of F-35. The system is so good that you are constantly surprised. It gets a bit like this: "Oh, you managed to find that plane so fast, yes?".

The Norwegian fighter aircraft fleet is under full construction. One month ago, three new F-35As land on Ørland, and with that, Norway has received 22 of 52 planned aircraft. Towards the end of the year, the Norwegian F-35 fleet says basic operational ability. Training from Red Flag is worth gold in the time to come.

- Exercise gives us unparalleled important experience that we can bring back directly to Norway, says Tesli.
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Unread post23 Jul 2019, 10:30

Norway explains the F-35 with illustrations. (I will post only the image that I liked.)
Published October 26, 2017
Interaction - soon everyone can talk to everyone
The F-35 has a number of highly advanced sensors and capabilities no other combat aircraft have today. By talking to surveillance aircraft, ground forces, ships or soldiers, the fighter can provide other units with valuable information. Thus, the Armed Forces can make even better decisions in pressurized situations. The pilot can also get an unparalleled overview of what's happening, with the ability to do more things at once: Fight other aircraft, conduct electronic warfare, fight ground targets, retrieve intelligence, and send and receive data from other friendly forces.

F-35 sensors - 360-degree eyes
F-35 comes full of modern technology. Among other things, the pilot can look through his own plane. Cameras placed around the Distributed Aperture System allow the pilot to get a 360-degree picture of what's going on around the plane. The cameras and the advanced helmet make the cockpit actually disappear and the pilot "sits in loose air". In front of the aircraft, under the nose, is the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), the world's first sensor that combines various and advanced infrared cameras. With this system, the pilot can see no one else can see.

The plane disappears
The sensors and systems in the aircraft assemble a picture from all the cameras on the airframe and show this on the visor of the helmet. The advanced helmet makes the cockpit actually disappear and the pilot "sits in loose air". Looking down the pilot, a picture of the ground below the plane is displayed and not the legs of the pilot. This provides a completely unique visual situation overview.

Look without being seen
The F-35 has a low signature and is therefore very difficult to detect for radars and other surveillance systems. The aircraft's design and special paint make it easier to reach a destination directly without being detected. These properties are called stealth - the ability to hide from radar and enemy aircraft.

Superior in the air
The F-35's sensors have such a long range that the fighter plane can identify other aircraft long before it is detected. The F-35 pilot thus gets the opportunity to decide for himself whether to attack or fly around the enemy planes.

A330 tanker - petrol station at 10,000 feet
With a tanker, other aircraft can get refilled fuel in the air. An F-35 lays behind the tanker that is carrying a long boom. This is connected to the F-35 via a fuel inlet just behind the fighter's cockpit. Airbus A330 multi-roller tanker and transport aircraft can carry 111,000 kg of fuel, enough to replenish multiple aircraft on one voyage.

operation Area
The new combat aircraft will operate from two bases in Norway. The main base will be Ørland Air Station, while Evenes will function as an advanced base. Here, two Norwegian F-35s will be in continuous readiness for NATO and could move out within 15 minutes to identify unknown aircraft. With these two bases and the F-35's range, the planes can be anywhere in the country in minutes.

Top speed
The F-35 has a top speed of almost 2000 km / h. Older fighter aircraft, such as the F-16, have a theoretically higher top speed - but can only be achieved for a very limited time, and with no weapon load and extra fuel. This top speed is therefore not much worth for the pilots. The F-35, on the other hand, can utilize its top speed for a long time - even when the aircraft is fully loaded with weapons and fuel.

Brake screen for demanding Norwegian conditions
In Norway we operate under extreme winter conditions with low temperatures, strong winds, poor visibility and smooth runways. This means that Norwegian F-35 must be able to land in demanding conditions, and on shorter runways than at the main airports. Norway and the Netherlands lead the work of developing a brake screen for F-35. It can be triggered by landing and quickly reduce aircraft speed. Similar brake screens are available today on the F-16.

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Unread post21 Oct 2019, 14:48

Norway F-35 strews flare. 8) (pompompompompompompom)
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Unread post02 Jan 2020, 15:54

Jan 1, 2020:
Today, the Norwegian F-35 Program led from MoD is terminated, and the ownership is transferred to the Armed Forces. I will thank my fantastic team, the partners and industry partners for the excellent cooperation bringing the worlds best fighter capability to the warfighters.

Morten Klever, F-35 Program Director
Former Flight Control Technican - We keep'em flying


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Unread post24 Apr 2020, 16:04

Not too long ago, the "long term plan" for Norwegian Defence Forces was presented by the Government.

Unsurprisingly, the increase in the budget is not as one would have hoped for. The F-35 program remains for the most part fully funded, however one important piece that is still missing, is a proper IADS to protect high-value targets in particular the single F-35 airbase that we have in Norway. Currently it is protected by NASAMS, which is quite decent, but needs to be complemented with a long-range SAM like Patriot or SAMP/T to get protection against short-range ballistic missiles. Without that we would need to rely on receiving a forewarning that something is about to happen, in order for the F-35 to be dispersed to other airfields. A surprise attack would wipe out most of the F-35 fleet on the ground.

Therefore we kindly ask anybody who plans an attack on Norway to be a sport and let us know well in advance. Thank you. :bang:


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Unread post24 Apr 2020, 17:09

BMD isn't even worth trying to defend against with missiles for a country like Norway. Even the superpowers run out of resources trying to do so.

Just need to disperse and do other kinds of passive defense.

Nansens can to an extent work as sensors in a BMD scheme. But not a strictly Norwegian one as there isn't enough layered defenses to make it work. USA can position enough assets to make the kind of defense in depth needed and pay for more than a token of exo-atmospheric interceptors etc.

Missile defense talk from others should probably be taken as a red herring, as in it's there to get attention/money for otherwise less sexy air defense systems against plain old fighters.
Last edited by magitsu on 24 Apr 2020, 17:15, edited 1 time in total.


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Unread post24 Apr 2020, 17:12

Sweden and Switzerland disagrees with you: they both have bought or are planning to buy Patriot and/or SAMP/T


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Unread post24 Apr 2020, 17:16

loke wrote:Sweden and Switzerland disagrees with you: they both have bought or are planning to buy Patriot and/or SAMP/T

Not for BMD. Cruise missiles maybe, but otherwise it's for extended range or in the Swedish case just trying to get anything to replace museum piece MIM-23 HAWK.

They get something, but they can park it either in Stockholm or Gotland. It's of no help to the rest of the country.

If you want to look things further, just search one of those posts that deal with the physical limitations of BMD. The velocity alone dictates how large, or in this case small a circle a Patriot system can defend.

Here's a good Finnish one that can be google translated. It talks mainly about the FDF's approach and some passive measures. There are some harsh realizations to be had, like how even a small saturation attack seems impossible to defend against with current and near future missile defense systems. ... -puolust-1


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Unread post24 Apr 2020, 18:18

In addition to Sweden and Switzerland, also the Norwegian Defence Forces has a long-range missile defence system very high on the wish list -- I should have made that more clear in my previous posting. The thing is NASAMS by itself is not good enough. Of course it cannot protect the whole country, that's not the point. I believe they want to buy two systems (most likely Patriot); one to protect the F-35 main airbase, and a second system to protect an airbase further north (Evenes) which will be a combined forward airbase for 4 F-35 for QRA, as well as the airbase of the new Poseidon P8. The P3s were further north but that airbase is being closed because "we cannot afford to protect it".

The rest of the country will be either unprotected or some other high-level targets will have NASAMS protection. At least when the Norwegian defence chief gets what's very high on top of his wish list.
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Unread post27 Apr 2020, 20:47

loke wrote:Not too long ago, the "long term plan" for Norwegian Defence Forces was presented by the Government.

Unsurprisingly, the increase in the budget is not as one would have hoped for. The F-35 program remains for the most part fully funded, however one important piece that is still missing, is a proper IADS to protect high-value targets in particular the single F-35 airbase that we have in Norway. Currently it is protected by NASAMS, which is quite decent, but needs to be complemented with a long-range SAM like Patriot or SAMP/T to get protection against short-range ballistic missiles. Without that we would need to rely on receiving a forewarning that something is about to happen, in order for the F-35 to be dispersed to other airfields. A surprise attack would wipe out most of the F-35 fleet on the ground.

Therefore we kindly ask anybody who plans an attack on Norway to be a sport and let us know well in advance. Thank you. :bang:

your intelligence sucks that bad huh?
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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 14:11

magitsu wrote:BMD isn't even worth trying to defend against with missiles for a country like Norway. Even the superpowers run out of resources trying to do so.

That may be true for area defense or providing coverage to large population centers. However that is most certainly not true for providing a layered defense (BMD, CMD, traditional Air Defense) to vital military installations such as Air-Bases and other Military high value targets. I can see a combined NASAMS and PATRIOT+ (with IBCS and LTAMDS) being very useful for that role in Norway especially with IBCS and the ability to utilize the F-35's and other passive sensors in that role as well. We are talking about $2-5 Million interceptors here and not the double digit million interceptors that large area defense systems come with.

magitsu wrote:Not for BMD. Cruise missiles maybe, but otherwise it's for extended range or in the Swedish case just trying to get anything to replace museum piece MIM-23 HAWK.

The Swedish Government:

The Armed Forces have advocated Patriot as a new air defence system, as it is a proven system with good delivery reliability and anti-ballistic missile capability. ... ce-system/

Another hint, at what the Swedish Armed Forces may have been thinking when they requested Patriot, comes from the fact that the Swedish government requested twice as many MSE missiles as they did the GEM-T missiles.

For Cruise Missile Defense, I expect Sweden to use the systems that it already has, or build something around the Falcon that SAAB/LM recently launched which is more than adequate as a HAWK replacement. As with Norway's NASAMS, CMD is going to be a lot more cost-effective by evolving these systems leaving the larger Patriot fire units to handle the more stressing Ballistic Missiles and other targets (like supersonic/hypersonic weapons).

One could also argue that for Norway, or Sweden, more dispersed AMRAAM-ER, or IRIS-T-SLM equipped NASAMS/FALCON units are probably a more cost effective way of providing overlapping air-defense coverage (against fixed and rotary winged threats) particularly when these are paired with advanced radars like the Giraffe 4A, or the upcoming Sentinel A4. This would allow you to preserve the $5 Million MSE's for the very high end threats like Short-Medium ranged ballistic weapons or supersonic/hypersonic missiles.


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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 15:19

Sweden is going back to the dispersed operations model with its air force. BMD will have to rely mainly on passive methods.

Read this through and try to argue against it: ... -puolust-1

It references Swedish studies:

"One solution, means or system cannot protect against a diverse air threat. This conclusion has also been reached by the Swedish "Försvarsmaktens långsiktiga materialbehov" in a report based on a report by the Totalförsvarets Forskningsinstitut (FOI), which states that the opponent uses a wide range of means to produce effects from the air. The choice of means to be used is determined by the operational criteria and costs. The report saw it as particularly important to deny the opponent the possibility of freely using short-range weapons."

"Systems capable of terminal phase intercept are used as the innermost layer. These systems (Patriot and SAMP/T) typically have a range of only tens of kilometers against ballistic missiles and are unable to provide comprehensive coverage over time and area. End-of-line combat systems may only be used against short-range ballistic missiles. Effective use of the systems requires an external system to provide early warning and to upgrade our own sensors to the indicated threat direction. This has also been noted by Swedes, who have looked at the performance of the Patriot system against ballistic missiles when developing their own air defense. The Swedish report emphasizes the overall networked system, which allows for adequate real-time response. This makes developing an overall system against ballistic missiles expensive.

The systems are only able to provide very limited protection against short-range ballistic missiles, as the effective range of the missiles used in them against ballistic missiles is only 15-22 km. Tasking terminal phase defense systems to combat ballistic missiles leaves them vulnerable to other air threat factors."

"The Swedes have looked at acquiring the Patriot system as part of developing their defenses. However, in their own studies, they have stated that a single system will not be able to respond to the threat posed by ballistic missiles, but that the ability to mobilize and decentralize its own critical resources must be developed as an alternative to acquiring a defense system. In the Swedish view, even after significant investments, defense systems are only able to protect individual targets and are also exposed to air and ground attacks by the opponent, against which they must be separately protected."

Against Russia you can't rely on a system that can intercept only single missiles. Sweden is in a tough spot with layering, since e.g. its Navy has only cannons for air defense. HAWK for Falcon in bigger numbers might serve better, and overall not trying to focus too much on BMD - instead improving general air defense - since the former is so hard.

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