Vote in the Senate today for 1.75 Billion F-22

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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pomeroy

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 17:56

Does any one know how the Senate votes for the 1.75 billion went on the F-22 for the seven there trying to get. just wondering. Fox news said there covering it but no real current news as of yet.
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wolfsith

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 18:08

http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider- ... m_galloway

According to this link, apparently it went against Raptor Procurment funding I'm afraid
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pomeroy

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 18:29

I will say this I am not a big fan of spending but I do agree we need more F-22's in the future I was of the DCC on the F-16 83-1178 it only had 6000+ flight hours then. The highest flying hour F-16 with over 7,238 you can read more on the plane in this article Highest flying time F-16 departs Luke and just from being in the 61st we busted A$$ keeping those planes in the air as I am sure many others did to we need more new fighters not only for the sake of ground crews also for the sake of future security. now we are fighting a ground war in current theaters but who’s to say tomorrow won’t bring back the day of the dog fight as fighter aircraft get better and better its only a matter of time before were back to up close and personal. again between defense systems, stealth, radar jamming and so forth one day in the future it just might take a piece of lead to knock the enemy from the sky. But that's my opinion and it can’t buy a Dang thing.
Last edited by pomeroy on 21 Jul 2009, 18:43, edited 1 time in total.
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shep1978

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 18:34

Isn't the idiot messiah going to veto it anyway if it succeeds? (I'm not US based so have a blurry picture of how it works over there)
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shep1978

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 18:35

wolfsith wrote:http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2009/07/21/senate-strips-extra-f-22-funding-from-defense-bill/?cxntfid=blogs_political_insider_jim_galloway

According to this link, apparently it went against Raptor Procurment funding I'm afraid


*mental note to myself* read thread first before commenting, (sorry)
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ruderamronbo

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Unread post21 Jul 2009, 23:32

Probably not a popular opinion on this forum but I'm glad and somewhat surprised that the senate showed some sanity and cut the funding. IF we ever fight the Chinese--let's be honest that's who the Raptors are for-- and we can't win with 150+ F-22s chucking AIM-120C/Ds and AIM-9Xs with lots of help from Vipers, F-35s, F-15Cs and F-18s with AESAs then we weren't going to win. The best line to describe why the Raptor production needs to stop is the signature block for a Viper fan on this site, Vipers (A-10s and Strike Eagles) fight while Raptors train. TDYs (these are not deployments--you have to go to a combat zone) to Guam or Kadena do not count. F-35s have an A/G role while the Raptors pretend to have one. The F-35 is not and will never be an A-10 or a Viper for that matter but it is at least relevant in today's wars whle the Air-Air mafia and their F-15Cs and F-22 haven't had a mission since 1999. We have a silver bullet force of Raptors, now it's time to move on.
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FlightDreamz

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 01:37

A fighter without a gun . . . is like an airplane without a wing.— Brigadier General Robin Olds, USAF.
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TC

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 03:15

It just makes me laugh whenever people actually act surprised about things like this anymore. If you thought that there was a chance that the F-22 line would have stayed open when the Administration changed, then I have some ocean-front property in Arizona.

"...and if you'll buy that, I'll throw the Golden Gate in free." ---George Strait
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 03:53

Its over except the tears.............
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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 04:06

Well let's hope that Congress will decide to allow our 'rich' allies the opportunity to keep the Raptor line open until we get 'new leadership' brave enough to reinstate the F/A-22B or FB-22C (w/F119-PW-200 engines!) in 4 years or so! (Hopefully before a new super-power has the technology/resources to surpass our own due to the depression that can happen very soon!?!)

FlightDreamz wrote:(wonder if opening the F-15 line to order some F-15SE's is an option)?

Now it's well known that Korea's F-15K runs about US$100 million (2006) (AESA Radar/New Electronics). Singapore's F-15SG's price is not public, but is most likely around the same price. (If not more as it is said to be the most advanced Eagle ever). Now Boeing says it can produced a version with the F-15K and F-15SG enhancements for the US with the 'frontal stealth' for only $60 million each?
:lmao:
Now how long will it take for the F-15SE to get through R&D and into service? How much will the costs rise with our current inflation rates?

So if the US buys 100 F-15SEs at $80M/each (I'm splitting the difference) We're talking $8Billion in just production costs. (Not to mention logistics for a aircraft with 'new' systems)

On the other hand you could buy $8 billion worth of Raptors at the current $137.54/each and have them delivered NOW, at 10 per year over the next 6 years and get them sooner and cheaper (no new support equipment/parts/training or R&D)

Neither is going to happen. If they scoffed at buying a few Raptors today that are already in production, they'll never spend almost $10 Billion on new Eagles. :slap:

My :2c:
Keep 'em flyin' :thumb:
TEG

Lets hope we get a 'Ronald Regan II' to get our military/aircraft back in shape after the recession/inflation/depression/stagflation of Jimmy Carter II (IE - Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 vs American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009)
[Airplanes are] near perfect, all they lack is the ability to forgive.
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DarthAmerica

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 04:46

Corsair1963 wrote:Its over except the tears.............


Crocodile tears...lol. I'm laughing because all of the venom is going to be aimed at President Obama. The man probably least responsible. The first Raptors were shot down by none other than Former VP Cheney when he was SecDef. A trend that continued through multiple Democrat and REPUBLICAN ADMINS.

When the time came to make the decision, President Bush, a former fighter pilot, punted the ball to Obama. SecDef Gates actually added four more Raptors! The first gain since all other admins cut it. And it was another Former Fighter Pilot Sen McCain and senior USAF leadership who gave cutting the F-22 the bi-partisan and military credibility necessary to make this an easy issue to defeat.

But none of the Pro-F-22 people will notice that. In time however this will go down as a historic moment for the DoD. This was only tangentially related to the F-22. This was about the DoD wasting money and focusing on the wrong war fighting paradigms. This DoD failure to adjust killed thousands of American civilians and military. If the DoD/USG would have focused on the actual threats that existed rather than hoping China would fill the USSR void we might have seen 9/11 coming. If we didn't and it happened anyway, we would have went into Iraq/Afghanistan better prepared for a COIN fight in the post conventional phases where we lack.

That last point is no small matter. To put it in perspective. We have lost about ~5000 dead in OIF/OEF with over ~50,000 total if we count WIA. Just counting dead though. 5000 is about what it takes to crew a US Navy CVN like the USS Nimitz! If we add in 9/11 dead thats 2 CVNs crews!!! And the cost of the wars in the post conventional phases could buy and support well over a hundred USS Nimitz class!

So those who blow off OIF/OEF as "dirt wars" would be well advised to consider that the mistake of not preparing to fight the COIN centric conflicts of today and tomorrow cost as much as any other conflict we are unprepared for. The difference is it just happens over a longer period of time.




-DA[/u]
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TC

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 05:19

You're right OEF/OIF are COIN-centric, ground-based wars. They aren't the air war, for which the F-22 was clearly intended. Therefore, it was cancelled.

Simply said, the Raptor has not deployed to either war. So, Congress, the SecDef, nor the President saw a need for it. If the money instead goes to the things that we actually need right now in OEF/OIF, then that is a good thing.
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DarthAmerica

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 05:36

TC wrote:You're right OEF/OIF are COIN-centric, ground-based wars. They aren't the air war, for which the F-22 was clearly intended. Therefore, it was cancelled.

Simply said, the Raptor has not deployed to either war. So, Congress, the SecDef, nor the President saw a need for it. If the money instead goes to the things that we actually need right now in OEF/OIF, then that is a good thing.


The way I see it is the up to 13 billion for the additional 60 F-22s people are lamenting about would have to have cone from elsewhere in the USAF budget. The question is from where? Even if it magically appeared, those F-22s like the F-15Cs before them will see little use in wars. We know we are in Iraq and Afghanistan for years to come and maybe even a decade or more. Ignoring that and diverting badly needed funds to fight hypothetical wars just does not make sense especially when you consider that in terms of blood we have shed more that the compliments of two Nimitz class carriers and in treasure far more than that!

-DA
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TC

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 05:46

I'm with you DA. I have a solution to the whole d@mned mess, however, my present position will not permit me to elaborate.

Just know that if I were King, so to speak, then things would be a lot different right now.

...and that's all I have to say about that.
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cutlassracer

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Unread post22 Jul 2009, 05:50

This wouldn't be quite as irritating if they would stop with the "cold war relic" line. We either have a strategic threat, or we don't. Ohio class "boomers" are still sneaking around the world, with no real mission. There are still plenty of silos full of ICBM's with no purpose (russia is no longer a threat remember). The BUFF over stayed its welcome about 30 years ago, but we still fly 'em everyday with no real purpose. Carpet bombing is kind of a waste, and the navy does a fine job of launching Tomahawks. Just think how much could be saved by scraping all of these "cold war" programs. Glad there are enough people here and in Washington that can see into the future, like when they decided fighters no longer needed a gun.............
Torrejon, Homestead, Moody, Osan, Holloman
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