Germany may reconsider Tornado replacement options (F-35)

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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Nov 2022, 16:43

IFC 2022: Luftwaffe reaffirms F-35A, Eurofighter EK procurement plan
17 Nov 2022 Gareth Jennings

"The Luftwaffe has restated its earlier declared intent to satisfy its Tornado replacement requirement with Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and Eurofighter Electronic Combat (Elektronischer Kampf: EK) aircraft, despite recent reports this was being reconsidered because of budgetary pressures.

Speaking at the IQPC International Fighter Conference (IFC) 2022 held in Berlin from 16 to 18 November, the Commander of the Air Force Forces Command, Lieutenant General Günter Katz, said that the intent to procure 35 F-35As and 15 Eurofighter EKs remains.

This statement on 16 November was contrary to German media reports over recent weeks that F-35 numbers were being revised downwards and the Eurofighter EK was to be replaced by the Boeing EA-18G Growler as a result of inflationary pressures on the EUR100 billion (USD103.86 billion) Söndervermögen (special fund) uplift in national defence spending that was introduced on the back of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... ement-plan
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daswp

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Unread post17 Nov 2022, 18:40

blindpilot wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:A few things come to mind in this thread.

1. I cannot describe with words what the Russian invasion has done to line the pockets of the military industrial complex. I am only disappointed that I didn't buy Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon or who ever makes stinger missiles stock.
...3. So now we have basically given Lockheed a[sic] monopoly ....
I had better get that Lockeed stock before China invades.


A couple points on the whole MIC rant ... The "Corporations" while treated as persons, are not people to be good or evil. There are 2 classes of players.
Class 1 - The very rich and corporate principals. They tend to be untouchable because of the army of lawyers and off shore banks. They don't care what you think, go pound sand! Fortunately even in the case of Musk, Bezos, and Gates they actually aren't the majority of $$ % of the corporations (just of the voting stocks).
Class 2 - managed and retail share holders. That's really who "Lockheed, MIC" is. Those literally are little old widows in modest houses watching game shows on TV, just trying to hang on with their arthritis, and little old men on the porch yelling at kids to get off the grass, watching their pension payments go up and down.

And I did buy Lockheed in pension, and retail, so just, "Shut up and get off my grass !!" Widows are not evil oppressors. Fight some other boogie man or buy the stock, whatever.


If you want to hate somebody rant at the hedge fund/short players who usually bring no value whatever to their money plays. They just steal money (1$ for 1$) from the widows by shorting Lockheed.

MHO
BP

One of the best explanations I have read. Hope you don't mind me copying it and sharing it with my students.
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blindpilot

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Unread post18 Nov 2022, 14:48

daswp wrote:
blindpilot wrote:....
[b]A couple points on the whole MIC rant ... The "Corporations" while treated as persons, are not people to be good or evil. ...
MHO
BP

One of the best explanations I have read. Hope you don't mind me copying it and sharing it with my students.


Please fell free to pass it own. It's a message that needs to get out.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 Dec 2022, 06:33

Germany to decide mid-December on purchase of F-35 fighter jet
07 Dec 2022 Reuters

"BERLIN (Reuters) - The German parliament will decide in mid-December about the 10 billion euro ($10.50 billion) purchase of the F-35 fighter jet produced by U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin, Defence Minister Christine Lambrecht said on Tuesday.

"We will discuss a huge project in the next session of the (parliament's) budget committee on Dec. 14, the F-35 ... with a volume of 10 billion euros in total," Lambrecht told reporters on a visit to the town of Simmern in western Germany....

...Germany aims to buy 35 F-35 stealth fighter jets, including missiles and other weapons and equipment, with the first eight aircraft to be delivered in 2026.

It is the first major project that Germany will tap the 100 billion euro special fund for. Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced the fund in a major policy shift days after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February, aiming to bring the Bundeswehr's weapons and equipment back up to standard after decades of attrition following the end of the Cold War....

...Berlin's decision for the F-35, which was announced in March but needs final approval by parliament, upset France.

Paris fears the deal could undercut the development of a joint Franco-German fighter jet that is supposed to be ready in the 2040s."

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/ge ... r-AA14Ymev
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Unread post10 Dec 2022, 14:50

spazsinbad wrote:
Germany to decide mid-December on purchase of F-35 fighter jet
07 Dec 2022 Reuters

"BERLIN (Reuters) - The German parliament will decide in mid-December about the 10 billion euro ($10.50 billion) purchase of the F-35 fighter jet produced by U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin, Defence Minister Christine Lambrecht said on Tuesday.

"We will discuss a huge project in the next session of the (parliament's) budget committee on Dec. 14, the F-35 ... with a volume of 10 billion euros in total," Lambrecht told reporters on a visit to the town of Simmern in western Germany....

...Germany aims to buy 35 F-35 stealth fighter jets, including missiles and other weapons and equipment, with the first eight aircraft to be delivered in 2026.

It is the first major project that Germany will tap the 100 billion euro special fund for. Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced the fund in a major policy shift days after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February, aiming to bring the Bundeswehr's weapons and equipment back up to standard after decades of attrition following the end of the Cold War....

...Berlin's decision for the F-35, which was announced in March but needs final approval by parliament, upset France.

Paris fears the deal could undercut the development of a joint Franco-German fighter jet that is supposed to be ready in the 2040s."

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/ge ... r-AA14Ymev


Strange that it's costing Germany double what it's costing Switzerland for 36 aircraft. Where's the rest of that money going?
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Unread post10 Dec 2022, 15:07

FMS=a la carte
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Unread post10 Dec 2022, 22:35

noth wrote:
Strange that it's costing Germany double what it's costing Switzerland for 36 aircraft. Where's the rest of that money going?


"Germany aims to buy 35 F-35 stealth fighter jets, including missiles and other weapons and equipment"

Probably towards the missiles, other weapons and equipment.

Proposed munitions packages include the AIM120C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); GBU-53 small diameter bombs; AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles-Extended Range (JASSM-ER); Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) tail kits; and AIM-9X Sidewinder missiles.
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Unread post11 Dec 2022, 00:26

Their total cost would also include infrastructure and building projects
Aussie fanboy and part-time astronaut.
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pakal

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Unread post11 Dec 2022, 18:31

optimist wrote:Their total cost would also include infrastructure and building projects


Same for Switzerland
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optimist

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Unread post12 Dec 2022, 00:58

pakal wrote:
optimist wrote:Their total cost would also include infrastructure and building projects


Same for Switzerland


Let's establish first. That all FMS customers pays the US, exactly the same flyaway costs, in the year that the aircraft is delivered. It is vary transparent.
Is this agreed?

Obviously the Swiss costs are different to the German costs in other areas. Number of spares, weapons, infrastructure and building costs. Australia train their own F-35 pilots and ground crew now. So training in the US isn't a cost for us. Or It may be as simple as what each counts in total costs. We have been down this rabbit hole before, but it does make a good headline.

Estimated $2 billion more and 5 less aircraft. Get your calculator out and tell us the difference :mrgreen:
The Swiss didn't buy aim-120 and Germany got 105, So there is ~$120 million.
Germany US costs
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... -munitions
estimated cost of $8.4 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today. The Government of Germany has requested to buy thirty-five (35) F-35

Swiss US costs
https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... nd-weapons
estimated cost of $6.58 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today. The Government of Switzerland requested to buy up to forty (40)
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not_kent

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Unread post12 Dec 2022, 12:13

pakal wrote:
optimist wrote:Their total cost would also include infrastructure and building projects


Same for Switzerland


The total package of the German buy is not the same as the Swiss buy of F-35A;
Note that the non F-35 parts of the Swiss cost account for over 1/3 of the total cost.

For Swiss the US$ 6,352 million is broken down as follows, Note the cost was lowered from initial est. of $6.6 billion:

US$ 4,029 million for the 36 F-35As
US$ 2,028 million for the logistics package with ground material, replacement material, documentation, training and technical support from the manufacturer during the introduction.
12 million for ammunition
90 million for systems for training and mission planning and evaluation
86 million for any technical risk: the F-35A is being procured in the same configuration used in other countries, and the manufacturer uses the same standards and processes used to manufacture more than 3,000 aircraft. This means that a risk premium can be expected to be low compared to other procurement projects.
5.2 million variable for assumed inflation.
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Unread post14 Dec 2022, 19:29

Germany approves 10 billion euro F-35 jet deal with U.S
15 Dec 2022 Reuters

"BERLIN (Reuters) -Germany got the go-ahead to buy F-35 fighter jets produced by U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin as part of military procurement projects worth 13 billion euros ($13.85 billion), Defence Minister Christine Lambrecht said on Wednesday. The German parliament's budget committee approved the spending, including 10 billion euros for the F-35 jets...

...Germany aims to buy 35 F-35 stealth fighter jets in total, including missiles and other weapons and equipment, with the first eight aircraft to be delivered in 2026.... ($1 = 0.9389 euros)"

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/ge ... r-AA15hoMW
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Unread post15 Dec 2022, 02:19

spazsinbad wrote:
Germany approves 10 billion euro F-35 jet deal with U.S
15 Dec 2022 Reuters

"BERLIN (Reuters) -Germany got the go-ahead to buy F-35 fighter jets produced by U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin as part of military procurement projects worth 13 billion euros ($13.85 billion), Defence Minister Christine Lambrecht said on Wednesday. The German parliament's budget committee approved the spending, including 10 billion euros for the F-35 jets...

...Germany aims to buy 35 F-35 stealth fighter jets in total, including missiles and other weapons and equipment, with the first eight aircraft to be delivered in 2026.... ($1 = 0.9389 euros)"

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/ge ... r-AA15hoMW



https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... PIULztmKGI
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 Dec 2022, 19:56



So, according to the source above, it's not €10 billion Euros but instead $8 Billion USD for 35 F-35's.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post15 Dec 2022, 20:48

Apparently Germany will be renovating air bases for the F-35, but just how many at this 8-10B€ price tag? I know the state of the German armed forces is decrepit but still...
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