India and the F-35?

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magitsu

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 08:24

Corsair1963 wrote:Also, with no more orders for Super Hornets from the USN. The production line will shut down shortly. This would make the offer to send it do India as very attractive for both parties....

LM offered F-16 production line to India around 2017-19, so it's perhaps not as big of a sweetener as it might first appear. It had much more plausible further sales potential than SH.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lock ... SKCN1PF1CY
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wil59

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 10:49

madrat wrote:Super Hornet when they already have Rafale? They'd be better off Rafale M if they need a naval fighter. If they want American then we already floated F-16IN to them which is better in both dollars and sense.

///// Well what would make sense is that it equips itself with the Rafale M for the navy and the Rafale f3r for the air force.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Jun 2021, 17:21

madrat wrote:Super Hornet when they already have Rafale? They'd be better off Rafale M if they need a naval fighter. If they want American then we already floated F-16IN to them which is better in both dollars and sense.


Why be sensible now of all times? :mrgreen:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 00:21

wil59 wrote:
madrat wrote:Super Hornet when they already have Rafale? They'd be better off Rafale M if they need a naval fighter. If they want American then we already floated F-16IN to them which is better in both dollars and sense.

///// Well what would make sense is that it equips itself with the Rafale M for the navy and the Rafale f3r for the air force.



Honestly, doesn't make sense to acquire any 4/4.5 Generation Fighter in the first place. Not with China pressing ahead with a fleet of J-20's and J-31's.....
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wil59

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 13:11

Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
madrat wrote:Super Hornet when they already have Rafale? They'd be better off Rafale M if they need a naval fighter. If they want American then we already floated F-16IN to them which is better in both dollars and sense.

///// Well what would make sense is that it equips itself with the Rafale M for the navy and the Rafale f3r for the air force.



Honestly, doesn't make sense to acquire any 4/4.5 Generation Fighter in the first place. Not with China pressing ahead with a fleet of J-20's and J-31's.....
//////The J20 and J31 are still in testing phases and are very far from being operational. In addition, their engines are not recent and should have an impressive ir imprint . As for the furtivites I do not think it is as good as that with integrated ducks, for EW electronics and avionics the rafale is much better with proven equipment, aesa and meteor, spectra with gan. The rafale is combat proven the J20 does not have it it is still in development and it still a good number of years saw how many years the F35 took to be operational so do not think that the J20 has a magic potion! . The Rafale still has many years ahead of it before the Chinese are able to land it.The Rafale is believed by many to be the best 4.5 generation aircraft. An American air force general said in an interview that the Rafale certainly has the best EW suite is that the French are according to him better in this area since he explained that the Americans are concentrated in stealth and the French in electronics for the past 30 years.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 13:32

Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:
madrat wrote:Super Hornet when they already have Rafale? They'd be better off Rafale M if they need a naval fighter. If they want American then we already floated F-16IN to them which is better in both dollars and sense.

///// Well what would make sense is that it equips itself with the Rafale M for the navy and the Rafale f3r for the air force.



Honestly, doesn't make sense to acquire any 4/4.5 Generation Fighter in the first place. Not with China pressing ahead with a fleet of J-20's and J-31's.....


I would fully agree with you but the problem is the following:
- How many and what are the 5th gen carrier aircraft available today and in the foreseeable future? The answer is quite simple and straightforward: The F-35B (for STOVL operations) and the F-35C (for CATOBAR operations). And that's all there is in terms of carrier based 5th gen fighter aircraft!
And it doesn't matter how much we discuss here but the F-35 is and will be "out of limits" for India, this at least in the foreseeable future.

This means that the Indian Navy will have to contend with 4th/4.5th Generation Fighter aircraft for their carriers.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 13:50

wil59 wrote://////The J20 and J31 are still in testing phases and are very far from being operational. In addition, their engines are not recent and should have an impressive ir imprint . As for the furtivites I do not think it is as good as that with integrated ducks, for EW electronics and avionics the rafale is much better with proven equipment, aesa and meteor, spectra with gan. The rafale is combat proven the J20 does not have it it is still in development and it still a good number of years saw how many years the F35 took to be operational so do not think that the J20 has a magic potion!


While I tend to agree with you above, I believe that the J-20 advantages - stealth - while not being as good as those of the F-22 and F-35 will give the J-20 a big advantage over any 4th/4.5th gen aircraft including the Rafale.
Resuming the J-20 is and will be a better/superior aircraft compared to the Rafale due to stealth. But not that this matters much for the discussion at hands because here we're talking about carrier based aircraft and we all know (the Chinese already confirmed this) that the J-20 is NOT suitable for carrier operations and won't be used on Chinese carriers.


wil59 wrote:. The Rafale still has many years ahead of it before the Chinese are able to land it.The Rafale is believed by many to be the best 4.5 generation aircraft. An American air force general said in an interview that the Rafale certainly has the best EW suite is that the French are according to him better in this area since he explained that the Americans are concentrated in stealth and the French in electronics for the past 30 years.


Here I tend to disagree.
While I definitely agree that the SPECTRA is probably one of the best (if not the best) self-protection EW suite mounted in a 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft, I definitely disagree that the French have better EW suites or concentrate more on EW suites than the Americans and that the American are mostly (or almost only) concentrated on Stealth.
An evidence of this is the AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda EW suite found on the F-35 which is most likely superior to SPECTRA.
Another evidence is the ALQ-99 and the upcoming NGJ jammer pods which can be carried by fighter sized aircraft which is a capability (electronics wise) that the French and other countries simply don't have.

I would say instead that since the Americans are moving to 5th gen fighter aircraft as opposed to 4th/4.5th gen that they are concentrating their best EW suites on their newest and 5th gen fighter aircraft (the F-35).
But and speaking of this, it seems that the American are equipping their newest 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft the F-15EX with a very advanced EW suite, the AN/ALQ-250 EPAWSS which is likely just as good if not better than SPECTRA.
Last edited by ricnunes on 03 Jun 2021, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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icemaverick

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 16:16

The Chinese are not to be underestimated in the world of stealth. They have the massive funding necessary to quickly develop their capabilities in this area. They also have the political determination to get it done. They have the best industrial espionage program in the world. We already know that they’ve stolen important data on the F-22 and F-35. There’s no doubt that they have stolen sensitive info from a number of different countries too.

They have already surpassed Russia and they are ahead of everyone except the USA in the world of stealth. It’s only a matter of time before they’ve significantly narrowed the gap with the USA. The Rafale isn’t going to cut it for India in the next 10 years. They need to get into the stealth game. They can either try to buy the F-35 or maybe partner with Britain to get in on the Tempest. They were in the Su-57 program but obviously weren’t impressed and chose to walk away. Even Russia doesn’t seem particularly impressed with the Su-57 at the moment.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Jun 2021, 16:34

icemaverick wrote:They can either try to buy the F-35 or maybe partner with Britain to get in on the Tempest.


First of all, I fully agree with your post.

Secondly, I actually never gave a though about what you mentioned in your post which I quoted above. But yes, that makes full sense and here's why:
1- I don't believe for a second that India will ever be able to buy the F-35 (at least not in the foreseeable).
2- India has close ties with Britain including in several fields such as technology. India also has the resources, namely financial but also technological which nicely complements those of Britain when developing a stealth fighter aircraft like the Tempest. India's participation also means more aircraft would be built which likely decreases cost per unit (good for Britain) while giving the much needed stealth fighter aircraft to India. Both sides would win (IMO) with such arrangement.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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commisar

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Unread post03 Jul 2021, 18:23

icemaverick wrote:The Chinese are not to be underestimated in the world of stealth. They have the massive funding necessary to quickly develop their capabilities in this area. They also have the political determination to get it done. They have the best industrial espionage program in the world. We already know that they’ve stolen important data on the F-22 and F-35. There’s no doubt that they have stolen sensitive info from a number of different countries too.

They have already surpassed Russia and they are ahead of everyone except the USA in the world of stealth. It’s only a matter of time before they’ve significantly narrowed the gap with the USA. The Rafale isn’t going to cut it for India in the next 10 years. They need to get into the stealth game. They can either try to buy the F-35 or maybe partner with Britain to get in on the Tempest. They were in the Su-57 program but obviously weren’t impressed and chose to walk away. Even Russia doesn’t seem particularly impressed with the Su-57 at the moment.



Correct. Unlike Russia, the Chinese have this magical substance called "money" and a neat trick called a "functional microelectronics industry" :)

The CCP plans long terms and a decade ago started dumping cash into engine development. Now, a decade later, their WS-10, WS-13, WS-15, and WS-20 engines are starting to enter service. They also aggressively steal as much technical data as they possibly can. Even if they don they 100% of what they want, bjtd and pieces can be put together or at least point them in the correct direction.

So, their J-20 is the 3rd operational stealth jet fighter on earth in 2021 and the J-31 is coming along although it's actually a private program and hasn't gotten a Chinese state order yet.

Beyond those two, China is rumored to be developing a stealth bomber, think a stealth Tupolev Tu-22M3.

Furthermore, China is busy inducting 4.5 generation jets like crazy, the J-10C, the J-11B, the J-15, the J-16 and a few dozen Su-35s.

India took a DECADE to buy 36 Rafales and their Tejas is a sick joke with a 35 year development program.

India should have bought the F-16 line and pumped out 150 or so F-16INs.... But they won't because I guess LM bribes aren't good enough
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Unread post04 Jul 2021, 12:00

commisar wrote:India took a DECADE to buy 36 Rafales and their Tejas is a sick joke with a 35 year development program.

India should have bought the F-16 line and pumped out 150 or so F-16INs.... But they won't because I guess LM bribes aren't good enough


LM is known as superb briber in past so nope bribes aren't problem, tech transfer is. France is quite involved in Indian weapon development giving Indian quite advanced tech, for example indian domestic engine will have M88 core and it would be "made in India" it is like US congress allow F404 core tech transfer, not possible at all.
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optimist

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Unread post04 Jul 2021, 13:09

milosh wrote:
commisar wrote:India took a DECADE to buy 36 Rafales and their Tejas is a sick joke with a 35 year development program.

India should have bought the F-16 line and pumped out 150 or so F-16INs.... But they won't because I guess LM bribes aren't good enough


LM is known as superb briber in past so nope bribes aren't problem, tech transfer is. France is quite involved in Indian weapon development giving Indian quite advanced tech, for example indian domestic engine will have M88 core and it would be "made in India" it is like US congress allow F404 core tech transfer, not possible at all.

Bingo, we have a winner. India wanting Tech transfer is also my opinion.
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sunstersun

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Unread post07 Jul 2021, 05:57

S-400 has to be an issue too.
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