Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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XanderCrews

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Unread post06 Jan 2021, 18:16

quicksilver wrote:We’re down the road on how many years on smart phones? We forget the collective learning (that includes all of us) about commercial and social internet behaviors that has occurred since the introduction of smart phones. Back in the early days of easy internet access many, including important government leaders around the planet, were all too quick to believe the latest nonsense posted by some basement dweller with a opinion, and picked up and ‘re-reported’ by entities with commercial interests in generating website hits.


correct. its still a high tech game of "telephone." one person writes something, completely unverified. its then picked and spread by the thousands. it becomes the "truth" everyone assumes the person before them verified it.

https://phys.org/news/2017-03-science-crisis.html

its happening everywhere.

There was a Dutch pilot at the Denmark symposism remarking about how he had to carefully explain the difference between Gripen and F-35 to a politician that was previously a teacher. he seemingly succeeded, but it highlights the problem.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 20:39

Canada’s defense minister: Our investment in defense is an investment in North American security
11 Jan 2021 Harjit Sajjan

"...By building an agile, well-educated, flexible, diverse, combat-ready military, we will be able to deal with threats abroad to protect stability at home. This historic investment through “Strong, Secure, Engaged” allows Canada to modernize our military by putting our people at its core as we continue to step up our contribution to North American and global security. When our partners and allies call upon Canada, we will be there for them."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... -security/
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 20:53

spazsinbad wrote:
Canada’s defense minister: Our investment in defense is an investment in North American security
11 Jan 2021 Harjit Sajjan

When our partners and allies call upon Canada, we will be there for them."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... -security/


There's absolutely NO doubt about that!
However the 'million dollar' question is: Will Canadian military servicemen when supporting allies and partners be equipped with the right equipment?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post12 Jan 2021, 23:09

spazsinbad wrote:
Canada’s defense minister: Our investment in defense is an investment in North American security
11 Jan 2021 Harjit Sajjan

"...By building an agile, well-educated, flexible, diverse, combat-ready military, we will be able to deal with threats abroad to protect stability at home. This historic investment through “Strong, Secure, Engaged” allows Canada to modernize our military by putting our people at its core as we continue to step up our contribution to North American and global security. When our partners and allies call upon Canada, we will be there for them."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... -security/



He must have not gotten the memo about Canada not needing some first strike stealth fighter...
When will they learn? :mrgreen:
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lipovitand

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Unread post13 Jan 2021, 06:56

XanderCrews wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
Canada’s defense minister: Our investment in defense is an investment in North American security
11 Jan 2021 Harjit Sajjan

"...By building an agile, well-educated, flexible, diverse, combat-ready military, we will be able to deal with threats abroad to protect stability at home. This historic investment through “Strong, Secure, Engaged” allows Canada to modernize our military by putting our people at its core as we continue to step up our contribution to North American and global security. When our partners and allies call upon Canada, we will be there for them."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/outlook/202 ... -security/



He must have not gotten the memo about Canada not needing some first strike stealth fighter...
When will they learn? :mrgreen:



Oh will be there for sure ;)....oh by the way, can we borrow some..
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XanderCrews

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Unread post13 Jan 2021, 16:02

lipovitand wrote:Oh will be there for sure ;)....oh by the way, can we borrow some..


Image

Borrow some what? I'm sorry no one else bought Gripens silly, I have no idea the parts you're trying to get from us. Everyone uses F-35s.

WTF is a "Canard" anyway?

Really wish you weren't so awkward, bud.



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Jan 2021, 10:56

Vaguely I Recall recently ironic pining for Sweetman PDF pomposity 'bout Canada; here's one or two from AvWeak 2015.

This old post referenced the now attached PDF article but the URL to AvWeak is not for the unwashed such as moi. :roll:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24027&p=307369&hilit=Sweetman#p307369
Lightning Struck - Canada’s election upset heralds a big fighter contest
26 Oct-08 Nov 2015 Bill Sweetman

"...Saab is likely to join the fray now that Canada’s commitment to the JSF is severed. One argument against the JSF was that its cost would eviscerate Canada’s land and maritime forces, and from that viewpoint, the Gripen’s economics are disruptive. It can supercruise, shoot the Meteor (as well as a full range of U.S. weapons) and has the same IRST as the Typhoon...."

Source: AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY/OCT 26-NOV 8, 2015 PDF

Next PDF page mentions Canada about the mission labs/cost, article was spread across 4 pages now in one so watch out.
Access Denied - F-35 export buyers must pay for U.S.-controlled software labs
26 Oct-08 Nov 2015 Bill Sweetman

"...The restrictions are also likely to be cumbersome. By contrast, “Swedish air force Gripens are often updated between sorties,” a Saab spokesman says. Signals intercepted and recorded by the fighter’s EW system on one sortie can be analyzed and the system updated in hours...." [after the shot down Gripen is found with intact systems?]

Source: AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY/OCT 26-NOV 8, 2015 PDF
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madrat

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Unread post17 Jan 2021, 14:58

With recent revelations regarding Canadian forces cooperating with Chinese forces on North American soil it's fine if they never see F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Jan 2021, 15:16

madrat wrote:With recent revelations regarding Canadian forces cooperating with Chinese forces on North American soil it's fine if they never see F-35.


WoW, you're really "inhaling" some very powerful sh*t :shock:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post17 Jan 2021, 16:37

ricnunes wrote:
madrat wrote:With recent revelations regarding Canadian forces cooperating with Chinese forces on North American soil it's fine if they never see F-35.


WoW, you're really "inhaling" some very powerful sh*t :shock:



The pentagon had to put the kibosh on China training with Canadian forces

https://asiatimes.com/2020/12/canadas-t ... es-report/
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Unread post17 Jan 2021, 16:54

I'm forgetful but I did not remember this JANE'S CPFH STUDY 13 Mar 2012 was produced for SAAB Aerospace. OOPS I guess this post could have gone in the GRIPING thread but hey it is relevant to the CANADIAN COMPETITION also.
FAST JET OPERATING COSTS COST PER FLIGHT HOUR STUDY OF SELECTED AIRCRAFT
13TH MARCH 2012 EDWARD HUNT SENIOR CONSULTANT, AEROSPACE & DEFENCE CONSULTING

PREPARED FOR: SAAB AeroSpace

"WHITE PAPER - FAST JET COST PER FLIGHT HOUR (CPFH) ASSESSMENT...

...Conclusions
Though IHS Jane’s continues to stress the limited utility of a general CPFH figure for a given aircraft type, this study suggests that the Saab Gripen and Lockheed Martin F-16 offer an extremely competitive CPFH when compared to larger and more complicated contemporary fighter aircraft. In part this is due to the greater sophistication and capability that the larger aircraft were designed to offer. Though the USAF F-16 study shows the significant variation in CPFH among aircraft of the same type, IHS Jane’s believes that the smaller Gripen and F-16s will, on average, offer a lower CPFH than the F-18 E/F, EuroFighter and Rafale. Military forecasts suggest they will also offer a lower CPFH than all F-35 variants....

...IHS Jane’s therefore believes that the low CPFH offer of the Gripen and F-16 will remain an extremely competitive part of these platforms’ portfolio despite the availability of types that offer higher performance in some if not all areas. The high cost of sustaining fighter aircraft through a campaign compared to the relatively low CPFH – yet competitive capabilities – of a Gripen or F-16 in the face of most threats are a significant mark in favour of these smaller yet capable aircraft."

Source: https://www.ftm.nl/upload/content/files ... 281%29.pdf
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Jan 2021, 00:07

XanderCrews wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
madrat wrote:With recent revelations regarding Canadian forces cooperating with Chinese forces on North American soil it's fine if they never see F-35.


WoW, you're really "inhaling" some very powerful sh*t :shock:



The pentagon had to put the kibosh on China training with Canadian forces

https://asiatimes.com/2020/12/canadas-t ... es-report/


Thanks for the link, Xander.

However and as much retarded as PM Justin Trudeau looks and really is, I'm pretty sure that IF the USA stood by its allies (in this case Canada) instead of looking only after it own interests - and here I'm talking about Huawei's top officer (which again was arrested in Canada and extradited to the USA at USA's request and which Canada received retaliations WITHOUT any USA support afterwards) - then this situation would likely never have happened.

Look, I'm one of the first here to criticize Canada's ridiculous decisions when it comes to military or external affairs such as a submissive approach towards China (not to mentioned all this F-35 deal) BUT and I'm sorry, here the USA with its 'screw the allies' approach namely by the current and ceasing presidency is also to blame, big time!

Lets hope that from now on that things become different and what the USA stops this 'screw the allies' approach and that Canada stops these dubious attitudes.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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madrat

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Unread post18 Jan 2021, 01:03

ricnunes-

Please tone your crap down.
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steve2267

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Unread post19 Jan 2021, 05:50

madrat wrote:ricnunes-

Please tone your crap down.

This ^^^
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 Jan 2021, 12:54

steve2267 wrote:
madrat wrote:ricnunes-

Please tone your crap down.

This ^^^


Ok, I feel that I need to sort/address this out.

If the "tone your crap down" was due to my early "inhaling some very powerful sh*t" comment, this one was posted more on a joking/kidding side but I admit that it can be misinterpreted as being a bit towards the 'offensive side' and as such I apologize here to Madrat!


However "Canadian forces cooperating with Chinese forces on North American and as such should never see the F-35" comment by Madrat is also exaggerated (to say the least) even because the USA also does this same kind of 'cooperation' with China (joint training in non-sensitive areas is more precise) on North American soil.
For instance you can read below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ooperation

that:
The US Army and People's Liberation Army regularly conduct joint army exercises to practice techniques for disaster rescue efforts, officially referred to as Humanitarian Aid and Disaster Relief (HADR). Starting in 2005, the two countries have conducted the annual Disaster Management Exchange, which consists of a substantive exchange of knowledge and techniques. This exercise has expanded and has been held in a number of different locations throughout the US and China.

In 2010, a Chinese Army delegation visited Fort Leonard Wood in the US, in order to learn about disaster rescue techniques.


In 2017, the joint exercises were held in Portland, Oregon.


So the USA conducts (regularly!) joint army exercises with China to practice techniques for disaster rescue efforts while Canada conducts joint army exercises with China to practice Arctic survival techniques. Simple as that.

Moreover, Australia also conducts joint military exercises with China as well. Here:
https://aus.thechinastory.org/archive/d ... relations/

Australia has probably the closest defence relationship with China of any of the members of the US-led ‘Five-Eyes’ intelligence-sharing network. There are regular bilateral exchanges between the Australian Defence Force (ADF) and the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA).


So by this logic, does this means that it would be fine that USA and Australia would never see F-35? Obviously not but I digress...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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