F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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tank-top

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 20:39

marauder2048 wrote:

Ultimately, the large cruise missile carrier aircraft are going to be detected and tracked.
Dealing with the large cruise missile raids they can generate, especially left-of-launch, is another matter.

I don't think bomber intercept is that practical at modern cruise missile standoff ranges unless you
have long-range hypersonic SAMs e.g. the 80's era Ballistic Intercept Missile.

So that leaves a defense in depth for destroying cruise missiles with a CAP, QRA birds and ground-based
defenses; HVP is looking really capable against cruise missiles.

But I think the main cruise missile threat to CONUS and NATO comes from Russian SSGNs or other
sub-surface cruise missile carriers.


Sounds about right but I don’t see any scenario where Russia attacks CONUS. I’m sure we know the temp of the tarmac at their TU 95 bases within range of CONUS, that dog don’t hunt. Submarine launched cruise missiles, you can do whatever you want on your last day.

Eastern Europe limited conflict is maybe on the table but I doubt they get a 2nd chance like Crimea. Their real play Nord Stream 2, unite Turkey and Iran dividing the ME and get oil off the dollar but Putin would never think of that. Especially with the other half of the ME set to sign peace treaties with Israel brokered by the US.

OK, back to the F-15X
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marauder2048

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 21:16

tank-top wrote:Sounds about right but I don’t see any scenario where Russia attacks CONUS. I’m sure we know the temp of the tarmac at their TU 95 bases within range of CONUS, that dog don’t hunt. Submarine launched cruise missiles, you can do whatever you want on your last day.


I agree that it is an unlikely scenario.
But the Russian conventional cruise missile threat is a credible threat to CONUS and has to be treated as such.

tank-top wrote:OK, back to the F-15X


We never left it; it slots in very nicely in the CMD role.
Particularly on the QRA front where it can bring a large volume of AAMs to bear pretty quickly.
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tank-top

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 21:33

marauder2048 wrote:
I agree that it is an unlikely scenario.
But the Russian conventional cruise missile threat is a credible threat to CONUS and has to be treated as such.


We never left it; it slots in very nicely in the CMD role.
Particularly on the QRA front where it can bring a large volume of AAMs to bear pretty quickly.


I just don’t understand what the point of a conventional attack on CONUS would be. Every asset used in such an attack would never go home, Russia would have a new holiday to celebrate their fallen heroes and a general would get shot in the back of the head. If they didn’t simply launch every cruise missile they have only a few would get through and to hit what? There just isn’t a return on that investment. I guess it’s just an excuse for us to buy shiny new stuff, the F15X would make a great missile truck for such an event.

Edit: ok, Russia gets oil off of the dollar and then hits the Alaska pipeline I guess. That would hurt
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marauder2048

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 21:46

tank-top wrote:I just don’t understand what the point of a conventional attack on CONUS would be.

Military planning and force structure development are driven by possibilities.

tank-top wrote: guess it’s just an excuse for us to buy shiny new stuff, the F15X would make a great missile truck for such an event.


There's that whole expeditionary CMD thing. Most of the expeditionary assets for CMD would be
just as useful for CONUS and some of the fixed assets (OTHR arrays) NORAD would be acquiring anyway.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 04:02

Sorry, if the F-16C/V is inadequate for the CONUS Air Defense Mission. Than so is the F-15EX....



So, the only viable solution is to acquire as many F-35's and as soon as possible........ :wink:
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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 04:12

tank-top wrote:I’m going to agree with Mitosh, sort of. Russia can easily overwhelm NATO’s defenses with cruise missiles and maybe even some bombers. It’s NATO’s offense that Russia is worried about.



Not even the US could defeat every possible missile strike. (cruise missiles in this case) Yet, it would be far more difficult than some content it would be.......


Nonetheless, I doubt Russia would even consider a direct cruise missile attack on the CONUS. As that would be a major escalation with dire consequences.


Clearly, Russia is well aware it couldn't win a Conventional or Nuclear Conflict with the US. So, I would expect the status quo of military actions with third parties. (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.) Not a direct conflict between the two...
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madrat

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 11:43

The Russians aren't the Soviets, the undisputable planners for the long war using nukes.

I don't want to see any scenario to find out if the Russians are inferior in that respect.
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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 16:36

The Chinese H-20 Stealth Bomber though, has to be taken into consideration..

It will undoubtedly carry a cruise missile load, especially given the round trip distance. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought some TU-160's either, as that production line will be up and running again soon. It's not hard to imagine them flying that platform (albeit with heavy modifications). Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already..
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marauder2048

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 18:07

Corsair1963 wrote:
Nonetheless, I doubt Russia would even consider a direct cruise missile attack on the CONUS. As that would be a major escalation with dire consequences.



The concern the Air Force would have is that improving conventional cruise missiles or stealth bombers
could threaten ICBM silos with conventional warheads.

This is a 27-inch diameter conical shaped charge developed as part of a two-stage conventional penetrator
design for AGM-129; JMEWS which is going on Tomahawk would be smaller but (probably) of a similar configuration.

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc734431/m2/1/high_res_d/810682.pdf
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conical-shape-charge-acm.png
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milosh

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 21:14

mixelflick wrote:The Chinese H-20 Stealth Bomber though, has to be taken into consideration..

It will undoubtedly carry a cruise missile load, especially given the round trip distance. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought some TU-160's either, as that production line will be up and running again soon. It's not hard to imagine them flying that platform (albeit with heavy modifications). Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already..


H-20 would need to be really huge fly wing to be able to fire ALCMs against CONUS.

I mean from Chinese mainland to US (flying between Taiwan and Philippines) you have almost 12.500km to COUNS. With 2500km missiles it will need to have at least 21.000km range (5% reserve).

Tu-160 with its 130tons of fuel have 12.300km (5% reserve) with six Kh-55SM ALCM.
Last edited by milosh on 29 Oct 2020, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.
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marauder2048

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 21:18

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:The Chinese H-20 Stealth Bomber though, has to be taken into consideration..

It will undoubtedly carry a cruise missile load, especially given the round trip distance. I wouldn't be surprised if they bought some TU-160's either, as that production line will be up and running again soon. It's not hard to imagine them flying that platform (albeit with heavy modifications). Frankly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already..


H-20 would need to be really huge fly wing to be able to fire ALCMs against CONUS.

I mean from Chinese mainland to US (flying between Taiwan and Philippines) you have almost 12.500km to COUNS. With 2500km missiles it will need to have at least 21.000km range (+5% reserve).

Huge Tu-160 with its 130tons of fuel have 12.300km (5% reserve) with six Kh-55SM ALCM.


Why wouldn't they just tanker chain? Especially if they are moving first.
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milosh

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 21:41

marauder2048 wrote:
Why wouldn't they just tanker chain? Especially if they are moving first.


Because they need to be sneaky, neighborhood isn't friendly to them at all, so if neighbors detect chinese tankers, US will know something fishy is going on. With stealth bomber they can pass undetected but tankers I really doubt. Maybe they can use H-20 as tanker too? Fuel tanks in weapon bays?

But classic tankers I really doubt are option.
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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 22:12

milosh wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
Why wouldn't they just tanker chain? Especially if they are moving first.


Because they need to be sneaky, neighborhood isn't friendly to them at all, so if neighbors detect chinese tankers, US will know something fishy is going on. With stealth bomber they can pass undetected but tankers I really doubt. Maybe they can use H-20 as tanker too? Fuel tanks in weapon bays?

But classic tankers I really doubt are option.


The Air Force apparently looked at a B-2 mod (possibly for the B-2C) that would include a hose-and-drogue configuration.
And it's also comparatively easy to hide aerial refuelers amongst civilian air traffic.

It's partially why Iran is so jittery when it comes to air defense and commercial wide/narrowbodies.
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tank-top

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 22:17

Yeah, we’d never see bombers from China flying to CONUS, we’re just gonna give the entire US Navy a full day off and tell NORAD and Schriever Air Force Base to just shut down for a day.

While we’re throwing out random stuff can we please give a dozen MQ-25s to Israel just for kicks, I’m sure Iran would really appreciate it.
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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 22:23

madrat wrote:The Russians aren't the Soviets, the undisputable planners for the long war using nukes.

I don't want to see any scenario to find out if the Russians are inferior in that respect.


I’m not too sure Putin thinks he’s not a Soviet.
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