F-35 vs Su-30/35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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sergei

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 20:39

"so i say APG-81 "
I say you don't know.

But suppose that this is true ,that it gives us?
The APG-77 has range 250-300km for a 1 m2 target in LPI it will be 4/5 or 2/3 ie 190 km .

Apg-81 can track target with RCS = 1m2 from 150 km in LPI, less than 40 km compared to APG-77
Now let's say that the technology LPI was improved - is it possible? Perhaps.
If 150km are 4/5 of max range, then max range=187km , If 150km are 2/3 of max range(ie technology not improved)
then max range=225km
This leads us to the conclusion that the radar Apg-81 is inferior in size and maximum power to radar APG-77 .
(hornetfinn :wink: )
Last edited by sergei on 28 Mar 2015, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
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basher54321

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 20:46

johnwill wrote:With regard to the little hissing contest between Sergei and Eloise about acceleration, let's just look at some numbers. Eloise is of course correct about drag being an essential term in the acceleration equation, but there is something both are missing, engine thrust at the flight condition. Both are using nominal thrust at sea level, zero airspeed, which is very different from thrust at the flight condition.

To show how important drag and actual thrust are, let's take a look at Eloise's graph comparing mach number vs. time for several airplanes. Using the Su-27S as an example, it can accelerate from mach 0.8 to 1.11 in 40 seconds. Speed of sound at 20,000 ft is 1037 ft/sec, so the airplane velocity increases 321 ft/sec in 40 seconds. That is .25g, or (thrust-drag/weight), a long way from Sergei's thrust/weight of 1.067 he shows for the Su-27.

If the graph can be believed, it is also very clear the F-16 easily can beat the Russian airplanes at acceleration in WVR combat conditions, as they seem to be optimized for best performance above 1.2 mach, beyond WVR conditions.


^THIS^
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 20:50

ata wrote:
:) yes, I've got the order from first time, but thank's for picture anyway :)
So, 1st wave and heavy F-35 see each other clearly, then 1st wave is doing what I described, what F-35 would do? Both stealth and non-stealth.


Heavy F-35s fire 2 AMRAAMs each at 1st wave of Su-35s, while 1st wave of Su-35s fire 2 R-77s each at heavy F-35s

Both waves immidiately take evasive maneuvers, this means that their missiles cannot be guided anymore,
However the Stealthy F-35s, still undetected, datalink targeting info to the Aim-120s launched by the heavy F-35s,

The 2nd wave of Su-35s cannot data link targeting info because of several reasons
1. They may be the target of the incoming AMRAAMs and take evasive maneuvers as well
2. Heavy ECM employed by the F-35s limit their participation at those ranges
3. They do not have LPI capable data links.
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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 21:42

eloise
"fact that F-35 jammer will be more effective "

You jamm opponent or not. What's in my understanding is Jamming-opponent can not see anything at all, its radar radiation completely depressed.F-35 is unable to do this with the Su-35 for several reasons.But thanks to stealth and jamming F35 able to hide its presence from Su-35 even if it is under not most successful angles to the Su-35.
------------
Su-35 sees heavy F-35 from 400 km and don't see stealth F35 that come before them for 100-150 km.

Su-35 approaching heavy F-35 and launches R-37 or R-77.
Stealth F35 see Su-35 and provides target designation for heavy F-35 , heavy F-35 evades R-37.
Su-35 got in range Aim-120 ,heavy F-35 in range R-77 all shooting at each other.
Stealth F35 provides target designation for heavy F-35 and shoot it own missiles at Su-35.
Su-35 with high probability shot down simultaneous attack from different angles , will some of R-77 hit target ? Unknown but possibly as target designation for them may give other Su-35 have not yet entered into battle yet.
What happens next depends on the decision of the commander of the Su-35.
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sergei

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 21:50

zero-one
------------
1. They may be the target of the incoming AMRAAMs and take evasive maneuvers as well
2. Heavy ECM employed by the F-35s limit their participation at those ranges
3. They do not have LPI capable data links.
--------------
1. F35 dont have Long-range missiles, 2 wave Su-35 to far away for Aim 120.
2.You cant jumm at range more then range your can see(if there is no pod)
3. Do they need it ?
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sergei

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 21:59

eloise wrote:
sergei wrote:"have much better acceleration than Su-27 , Su-35"
Let's check

F16
Loaded weight: 26,500 lb Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lb
Thrust/weight: 1.079

Su-27
Loaded weight: 51,650 lb Thrust with afterburner: 55,100+ lb
Thrust/weight:1.067

Su-35
Loaded weight:56,660 lb Thrust with afterburner: 64,000 lb
Thrust/weight: 1.295

F16 have 0.012 better ( but not much better - only 1.112%) acceleration than Su-27 ,
F16 have 0.216 worse acceleration than Su-35(That's what I call a significantly worse - 20%)

Summing= Half-truth for Su-27, completely untrue for Su-35

What with the manoeuvrability?

F-16 Wing area: 300ft Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft²
Su-27 Wing area: 667ft Wing loading: 77.3 lb/ft
Su-35 Wing area: 667ft Wing loading: 84.9 lb/ft²

No, and here F-16 lost

But perhaps climb ?Let see.

F-16 Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min
Su-27 Rate of climb: 59,000 ft/min
Su-35 Rate of climb: >55,000 ft/min

Sad but F-16 lost again :?

:doh:
1 ) acceleration is not just about thrust/weight , you have to take into account drag as well ( dont be lazy , take out the flight manual )
example : Image
2 ) F-4 have much lower wing loading than F-16 does that mean F-4 turn better than F-16 ? :roll:


eloise
Do you have a graph with better resolution ?
Last edited by sergei on 28 Mar 2015, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
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ata

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 23:10

zero-one wrote:
ata wrote:
:) yes, I've got the order from first time, but thank's for picture anyway :)
So, 1st wave and heavy F-35 see each other clearly, then 1st wave is doing what I described, what F-35 would do? Both stealth and non-stealth.


Heavy F-35s fire 2 AMRAAMs each at 1st wave of Su-35s, while 1st wave of Su-35s fire 2 R-77s each at heavy F-35s

Both waves immidiately take evasive maneuvers, this means that their missiles cannot be guided anymore,
However the Stealthy F-35s, still undetected, datalink targeting info to the Aim-120s launched by the heavy F-35s,

The 2nd wave of Su-35s cannot data link targeting info because of several reasons
1. They may be the target of the incoming AMRAAMs and take evasive maneuvers as well
2. Heavy ECM employed by the F-35s limit their participation at those ranges
3. They do not have LPI capable data links.


Wait, I've offered different thing.
We agreed that both sides know about each other from long distance. Let's say 200+ km (too far to launch missiles for both sides). Then at about 150 from each other 1st wave is going down. So, before it can be fired. Second wave is let's say at 50 km back from 1st wave.
1st wave is unreachable for heavy F-35s nor for stealth F-35. And despite all of F-35s are able to detect second group they can't fire because it's too far. Meantime 2nd group reduces speed while 1st group moves as fast as possible and after 2-3 minutes (or even faster, depends on F-35's speed) they will be at 50 km from F-35 still hidden from them. Even if F-35 will be changing direction second group can guide first group even if 1st group turns off all the transmitters.
50 kms from F-35 and still hidden - I can imagine several scenarios here. They are all risky, but it's not a game, isn't it? :) They can turn on radars and fire R-77 even from that low altitude. Alternatively they can try to get even closer and fire IR missiles without any radar at all.
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sergei

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Unread post28 Mar 2015, 23:31

zero-one
weapons:
4xR-77: 1540 lbs
2xR-11:

R-11 Soviet tactical ballistic missile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-11_Zemlya

:bang:

F-35 destroyed by a nuclear explosion, Su-30 win.
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blindpilot

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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 01:51

ata wrote:...

Wait, I've offered different thing.
We agreed that both sides know about each other from long distance. Let's say 200+ km (too far to launch missiles for both sides). Then at about 150 from each other 1st wave is going down. So, before it can be fired. Second wave is let's say at 50 km back from 1st wave.

1st wave is unreachable ....despite all of F-35s are able to detect second group they can't fire because it's too far.

...at 50 km from F-35 still hidden from them...... turns off all the transmitters.
50 kms from F-35 and still hidden - I can imagine several scenarios here. .... They can turn on radars and fire R-77 even from that low altitude. Alternatively they can try to get even closer and fire IR missiles without any radar at all.


<Sarcasm on>
OK let me see if I can understand how you are planning this engagement.

First some aircraft stay very very far away and slow down to cruise along, because the range is too far while there are stealthy F-35s (or maybe F 22s) wandering the area somewhere, ... you have no clue... they could be right behind you?
Second the other aircraft are still going to stay on the deck, turn radar off and hope to shoot missiles through thick sea level air, thousands of meters UP into the sky and pray they aren't running out of energy, as they coast UP to altitude...
And you are doing this based on unclassified range charts hoping that some F-35 missiles weren't given a boost from a high altitude Mach launch speed, and because you helped them out by staying low, they are also going down hill.... for even more range. ...
And this is based on believing that no one can see your 10m2 radar return and your "fast as possible" heat signature at low level in the trees...

Good luck with that
<Sarcasm off>


Is it just me?
Or am I missing something in translation?
BP
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popcorn

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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 03:48

blindpilot wrote:
ata wrote:...

Wait, I've offered different thing.
We agreed that both sides know about each other from long distance. Let's say 200+ km (too far to launch missiles for both sides). Then at about 150 from each other 1st wave is going down. So, before it can be fired. Second wave is let's say at 50 km back from 1st wave.

1st wave is unreachable ....despite all of F-35s are able to detect second group they can't fire because it's too far. Ju

...at 50 km from F-35 still hidden from them...... turns off all the transmitters.
50 kms from F-35 and still hidden - I can imagine several scenarios here. .... They can turn on radars and fire R-77 even from that low altitude. Alternatively they can try to get even closer and fire IR missiles without any radar at all.


<Sarcasm on>
OK let me see if I can understand how you are planning this engagement.

First some aircraft stay very very far away and slow down to cruise along, because the range is too far while there are stealthy F-35s (or maybe F 22s) wandering the area somewhere, ... you have no clue... they could be right behind you?
Second the other aircraft are still going to stay on the deck, turn radar off and hope to shoot missiles through thick sea level air, thousands of meters UP into the sky and pray they aren't running out of energy, as they coast UP to altitude...
And you are doing this based on unclassified range charts hoping that some F-35 missiles weren't given a boost from a high altitude Mach launch speed, and because you helped them out by staying low, they are also going down hill.... for even more range. ...
And this is based on believing that no one can see your 10m2 radar return and your "fast as possible" heat signature at low level in the trees...

Good luck with that
<Sarcasm off>


Is it just me?
Or am I missing something in translation?
BP

You haven't taken into account that he's a "scientist" and has "science" on his side. LOL.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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blindpilot

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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 05:32

popcorn wrote:
blindpilot wrote:... am I missing something in translation?
BP

You haven't taken into account that he's a "scientist" and has "science" on his side. LOL.


Yeah I guess. Did I mention that I got a BS degree in the Physical Sciences from the USAF Academy, and one of my senior projects was preparing an operational system on the Skylab space station?? I suppose I need to go back and brush up on my high school physics. I knew I needed to get the post graduate degree in Physics instead of the other stuff, but ,,,. Who'd thunk it?

:D
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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 05:56

blindpilot wrote:
ata wrote:...

Wait, I've offered different thing.
We agreed that both sides know about each other from long distance. Let's say 200+ km (too far to launch missiles for both sides). Then at about 150 from each other 1st wave is going down. So, before it can be fired. Second wave is let's say at 50 km back from 1st wave.

1st wave is unreachable ....despite all of F-35s are able to detect second group they can't fire because it's too far.

...at 50 km from F-35 still hidden from them...... turns off all the transmitters.
50 kms from F-35 and still hidden - I can imagine several scenarios here. .... They can turn on radars and fire R-77 even from that low altitude. Alternatively they can try to get even closer and fire IR missiles without any radar at all.


<Sarcasm on>
OK let me see if I can understand how you are planning this engagement.

First some aircraft stay very very far away and slow down to cruise along, because the range is too far while there are stealthy F-35s (or maybe F 22s) wandering the area somewhere, ... you have no clue... they could be right behind you?
Second the other aircraft are still going to stay on the deck, turn radar off and hope to shoot missiles through thick sea level air, thousands of meters UP into the sky and pray they aren't running out of energy, as they coast UP to altitude...
And you are doing this based on unclassified range charts hoping that some F-35 missiles weren't given a boost from a high altitude Mach launch speed, and because you helped them out by staying low, they are also going down hill.... for even more range. ...
And this is based on believing that no one can see your 10m2 radar return and your "fast as possible" heat signature at low level in the trees...

Good luck with that
<Sarcasm off>


Is it just me?
Or am I missing something in translation?
BP


I have a sneaking suspicion that ata is stuck in the 1960s and has not heard of look down shoot down radars Bwahahaha :mrgreen: .

Ata certainly has not heard of radar "tactics"....i.e. Some aircraft in the group searching the "deck"/down low with their radars whilst other aircraft in the group search at the same and higher altitudes with their own radars. Let me give you a clue ata, go to YouTube and search History Channel's Dogfights - Gulf War 1. Look for the BVR engagement between USAF F15Cs and Iraqi Air Force Mig 23s....very interesting information how USAF F15C pilots used their radar in their four ship group.
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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 06:12

sergei wrote:eloise
"fact that F-35 jammer will be more effective "

You jamm opponent or not. What's in my understanding is Jamming-opponent can not see anything at all, its radar radiation completely depressed.F-35 is unable to do this with the Su-35 for several reasons.But thanks to stealth and jamming F35 able to hide its presence from Su-35 even if it is under not most successful angles to the Su-35.
------------

there are 2 kind of jamming
1) deception jamming : receive enemy radar signal , process it and resend signal with wrong characteristics in attempt to break missiles lock, common deceptive jamming are RGPO, VGPO, Cross eye.. etc
the advantages of this kind of jamming is that they dont required very high power and missiles dont know they are being jammed thus they dont change to HOJ mode, however the disadvantage is that they dont work well ( may not even work at all) again frequency agile radar or LPI radar, it also doesn't overload enemy radar by fool signal, as a result enemy radar can still see your aircraft ( they still see new target but your aircraft not disappear )

2) noise jamming : very simple, overload enemy radar with noise signal, so they cant see the real return from your aircraft , there are several kind of noise jamming : barrage jamming, spot jamming, sweep jamming.. etc, noise jamming effectiveness depending on signal-to-noise ratio so you either raised the noise ( much more powerful jammer ) or reduce the return signal ( smaller RCS) , advantage of noise jamming is that they can work again LPI radar, disadvantage is that if you are more vulnerable to HOJ missiles ( unless you transmitted the jamming signal by your Towed decoy, but towed decoy transmiter are quite weak due to their size ) , not very effective if your RCS too big


sergei wrote:Su-35 sees heavy F-35 from 400 km and don't see stealth F35 that come before them for 100-150 km.


Su-35 can hardly see stealth F-35 from more than 20 km ( in jamming condition)
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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 06:22

sergei wrote:
2.You cant jumm at range more then range your can see(if there is no pod)

in theory, you can jam longer range than you can see ( because the jamming signal only have to go one way while radar signal have to go and travel back)
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Unread post29 Mar 2015, 06:58

sergei wrote:
eloise
Do you have a graph with better resolution ?

sadly no, but you can draw your own from flight manual
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