New U.S. Stealth Jet Can't Hide From Russian Radar

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 07:22

Definition of 'VIRTUALLY': almost entirely : nearly : for all practical purposes <virtually unknown>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virtually

N.B. BS moaning the westerners are NOT talking to him like some Ruskies. :devil: :twisted:
New U.S. Stealth Jet Can’t Hide From Russian Radar 28 Apr 2014 Bill Sweetman

"America’s gazillion-dollar Joint Strike Fighter is supposed to go virtually unseen when flying over enemy turf. But that’s not how things are working out.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter—the jet that the Pentagon is counting on to be the stealthy future of its tactical aircraft — is having all sorts of shortcomings. But the most serious may be that the JSF is not, in fact, stealthy in the eyes of a growing number of Russian and Chinese radars. Nor is it particularly good at jamming enemy radar. Which means the Defense Department is committing hundreds of billions of dollars to a fighter that will need the help of specialized jamming aircraft that protect non-stealthy — “radar-shiny,” as some insiders call them — aircraft today.

These problems are not secret at all. The F-35 is susceptible to detection by radars operating in the VHF bands of the spectrum. The fighter’s jamming is mostly confined to the X-band, in the sector covered by its APG-81 radar. These are not criticisms of the program but the result of choices by the customer, the Pentagon.

To suggest that the F-35 is VHF-stealthy is like arguing that the sky is not blue — literally, because both involve the same phenomenon. The late-Victorian physicist Lord Rayleigh gave his name to the way that electromagnetic radiation is scattered by objects that are smaller than its wavelength. This applies to the particles in the air that scatter sunlight, and aircraft stabilizers and wingtips that are about the same meter-class size as VHF waves....

...What the JSF does have is a jamming function—also known as “electronic attack, or EA, in militaryese — in the radar. It also has an expendable radar decoy — BAE Systems’ ALE-70. Both are last-ditch measures to disrupt a missile engagement, not to prevent tracking.

JSF’s planners, in the mid-1990s, were close to correct when they calculated that low-band stealth and limited EA, combined with passive electronic surveillance for situational awareness, would be adequate at service entry. But they expected that the F-35 would reach squadrons in 2010, and China’s military modernization was barely imaginable.

The threats of the late 2010s will be qualitatively different. Old VHF radars could be dealt with by breaking the kill chain between detection and tracking: they did not provide good enough cueing to put analog, mechanically scanned tracking radars on to the target. Active electronically scanned array (AESA), high-power VHF radars and decimeter- and centimeter-wave trackers are more tenacious foes.

Last August, at an air show near Moscow, I talked to designers of a new, highly mobile counterstealth radar system, now being delivered to the Russian armed forces. Its centerpiece was a 100-foot-wide all-digital VHF AESA, but it also incorporated powerful higher-frequency radars that can track small targets once the VHF radar has detected them. More recently, however, it has emerged that the U.S.Navy is worried because new Chinese warships carry the Type 517M VHF search radar, which its maker says is an AESA.

None of this is to say that stealth is dead, but it is not reasonable to expect that the cat-and-mouse game of detection and evasion in air combat has stopped, or that it ever will. EA and stealth still do not coexist very comfortably on the same platform, but offboard EA and stealth are synergistic: the smaller the target, the less jamming power is needed to mask it.

But the threat’s demonstrated [ground radar?] agility drives home the lesson that there is no one winning move in the radar game. Excessive reliance on a single-point design is not a good idea, and using fictitious secrecy to squash the debate is an even worse one. [I thought it was not a secret? See 1st sentence 3rd paragraph above: "These problems are not secret at all."]

This column also appears in the April 28 issue of Aviation Week & Space Technology."

SOURCE: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... radar.html
Last edited by spazsinbad on 28 Apr 2014, 08:47, edited 2 times in total.
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KamenRiderBlade

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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 07:32

Last August, at an air show near Moscow, I talked to designers of a new, highly mobile counterstealth radar system, now being delivered to the Russian armed forces. Its centerpiece was a 100-foot-wide all-digital VHF AESA, but it also incorporated powerful higher-frequency radars that can track small targets once the VHF radar has detected them. More recently, however, it has emerged that the U.S.Navy is worried because new Chinese warships carry the Type 517M VHF search radar, which its maker says is an AESA.


My, what a big target you are for long range weapons to shoot at.

Anything that big isn't going to be very mobile, even packed into a vehicle.

Aircraft are not going to be packing 100 foot wide VHF AESA.

If you do try to pack something like that, then you just made a very big target.

Also Russian / Chinese eletronics technology development in the Radar field is not as advanced as they would have you believe.

There are plenty of forum members here who can attest to that.

This seems like more hot air from Bill Sweetman.

Just like that AESA tipped missile of doom & gloom.
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 07:58

E-2D,which operating at UHF band,also using AESA and having digital beamforming/digital process ability,is smiling
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 09:49

Holy Hell...

Guess I shouldn't be that surprised seeing as few of those still inside the Western defense complex (Saab being a partial exception) appear willing to tell him jack-$hit anymore. I suppose he'll just parrot whatever the Russians tell him for the rest of his career, which may actually be a good thing wherein how seriously the professionals take him. Now if only there were a way to remind his fellow journalists that he's actually just one of them and not an actual engineer, pilot, or warfighter in any meaningful capacity... not in the least... and that his opinions on the matter of military aviation shouldn't be taken any more seriously than Tom Cruise's. The only difference between Sweetman and his counterparts at Entertainment Weekly is that he uses a different vocabulary-set and has unprofessionally become part of the story himself.
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 10:23

AESA or not, limitation of the VHF band can't be changed (i.e limited ability to provide a precise location/track). Being able to electronically cue higher frequency radars sure helps but is not a magic/foolproof solution for tracking a VLO target. Yawn, BS is just parroting what USN and USAF officials have been saying lately in regards to the synergy of stealth and EW. One thing is certain though, these newfangled AESA VHF (possibly combined with higher frequency T/R modules) radars are very bad news for BS's beloved "6th Gen" mildly (being generous here) stealthy Gripen NG. EW is not going to save the Gripen NG's bacon effectively :D.
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 13:17

mk82 wrote:One thing is certain though, these newfangled AESA VHF (possibly combined with higher frequency T/R modules) radars are very bad news for BS's beloved "6th Gen" mildly (being generous here) stealthy Gripen NG. EW is not going to save the Gripen NG's bacon effectively :D.


Exactly. Somehow these new radar systems only work against stealth aircraft according to some... :?

Are radar systems getting better? Of course they are.

Are radar systems becoming better at detecting stealth aircraft and other targets? Of course they are.

Is stealth useless against low frequency radars? No, it's not. RAM is not very effective in L-band and below, although they are not totally ineffective either depending on how they are tuned. Of course the aircraft can also apply RAS to absorb low frequency radar waves and this can be effective even in UHF bands, although some parts of the aircraft might still be impossible to make very stealthy very low frequencies (due to Rayleigh scattering and difficulty to employ RAS). Still it would mean lower overall RCS as the whole aircraft is not reflecting radar waves, but only some parts of it.

Is stealth useless against future defenses? No, not by a long shot. Stealth works just fine against higher frequency surveillance and fire control radars. One can not make an effective L-, VHF- or UHF band fire control radar. It's a bit like having a gunfight with somebody you can hear moving, but could not really see until he was very close to you. Of course the hearing him would be useful, but would it mean you can kill the enemy? Of course it doesn't and would require enemy either making serious mistake or you getting very lucky.
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 13:22

It's amusing watching the desperation of B.S. He's not even pretending to be a journalist anymore. :lmao:
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 16:30

This guy's going to eat his words when the Stubby shows up at Red Flag.

Let's put him and Karlo Kopp (or whatever) in an two seat Flanker (or F-111, their choice) and put them up against a single F-35. You think they'd be game?
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Unread post28 Apr 2014, 17:44

oh lawd.

Good to see Bill is taking the Australian news about as well as everyone else. He is normally so unflappable and witty, did he outsource to david axe or what? :D

WOW lol

Let ustrack the standard internet logic:

F-35 has stealth.

Stealth will fail!! Moores Law!! Russia/China/Iran/Guy in his basement has already made stealth obsolete!


Stealth will never be obsolete, Russia and China are also developing LO aircraft and even drones are looking LO. it can only become degraded but will never go away. and will still be more advantageous than an aircraft without it, but if it you are worried about it, the F-35 has powerful organic jamming and other avionics advantages.

So stealth doesn't work!! You need jamming!! That means you need dedicated jammers!!

Ok if the stealth and organic jamming isn't enough (as you say the future could get tougher and the enemy may improve) the USMC planned years ago to fit the NGJ pods on an F-35, to replace the prowlers that can't last forever

But If the F-35 carries jammers it will lose its stealth!!

:doh:

insert monty python joke
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 02:51

mixelflick wrote:This guy's going to eat his words when the Stubby shows up at Red Flag.

Let's put him and Karlo Kopp (or whatever) in an two seat Flanker (or F-111, their choice) and put them up against a single F-35. You think they'd be game?



Red Flag, which year??? 2017? 2018? 2019?? Carrying 2x AMRAAM only? Or waiting for the hopeful mature full-block 3 complement of 4x AMRAAM shots, once it's finally developed and operational?

What happens though once these fearless Red Flag heroes are within WVR, and F-35 has no integrated dog-fight AIM-9 self-defense rounds (or gun?) to speak of?? :shock:
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 03:06

My Prediction:

USMC will be the first at Red Flag with a Block 2B jet (2 AMRAAM and 2 JDAM/Paveway). This makes the most sense since the first Operational F-35B Squadron and the unit charged with developing unit tactics for the F-35B are stationed next door (literally) in Yuma,AZ with VMFA-121.

Timeline: 2015 at the latest

The USMC has also demonstrated the desire to use F-35s in these types of exercises in the past as they recently used the BAC1-11 and its F-35 avionics in the recent Bold Alligator.
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 03:25

geogen wrote:
mixelflick wrote:This guy's going to eat his words when the Stubby shows up at Red Flag.

Let's put him and Karlo Kopp (or whatever) in an two seat Flanker (or F-111, their choice) and put them up against a single F-35. You think they'd be game?



Red Flag, which year??? 2017? 2018? 2019?? Carrying 2x AMRAAM only? Or waiting for the hopeful mature full-block 3 complement of 4x AMRAAM shots, once it's finally developed and operational?

What happens though once these fearless Red Flag heroes are within WVR, and F-35 has no integrated dog-fight AIM-9 self-defense rounds (or gun?) to speak of?? :shock:


As always at Red Flag: any pilot who loses is put up against a wall and shot in the face by firing squad and their airplane set aflame and pushed into the sea, while their family name is dishonored and sold into slavery at the US Governments discretion and convenience ; their animals feed to the winning pilot in the "fearless red flag heroes" banquet with his wife taken apprise by the winner in order to breed a hardier race of future fighter pilot.


Good god, man. :doh: try not to hyperventilate.
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 03:57

SpudmanWP wrote:My Prediction:

USMC will be the first at Red Flag with a Block 2B jet (2 AMRAAM and 2 JDAM/Paveway). This makes the most sense since the first Operational F-35B Squadron and the unit charged with developing unit tactics for the F-35B are stationed next door (literally) in Yuma,AZ with VMFA-121.

Timeline: 2015 at the latest

The USMC has also demonstrated the desire to use F-35s in these types of exercises in the past as they recently used the BAC1-11 and its F-35 avionics in the recent Bold Alligator.


You've lost a few wagers in the past with me my friend ;) would you perhaps wish to put a wager on that 'Timeline: Red Flag 2015 at the latest'?

I'm happy to concede on that date, even it's mere symbolic show, even with not-yet block 2B-mature jets.
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 04:10

Actually since the  422nd TES squadron at Nellis AFB has four F-35's it wouldn't be suprising if the F-35 made a limited apperance at this years Red Flag. So I 2014.
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Unread post29 Apr 2014, 04:26

SpudmanWP wrote:My Prediction:

USMC will be the first at Red Flag with a Block 2B jet (2 AMRAAM and 2 JDAM/Paveway). This makes the most sense since the first Operational F-35B Squadron and the unit charged with developing unit tactics for the F-35B are stationed next door (literally) in Yuma,AZ with VMFA-121.

Timeline: 2015 at the latest...
That's a touch optimistic. Last I heard, IOC had been pushed to December next year; and given the depredations of sequestration and the recent government-shutdown, I'm guessing a few months will be slipped yet. As for Red Flag, I don't really see any JSF variant contributing much before 2018, and I wouldn't be surprised if full participation got pushed into the 2020s. Any Red Flag appearances before then will likely be gimmicks.
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