Germany may reconsider Tornado replacement options (F-35)

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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Mar 2022, 16:57

@eloise,

Yes, you're absolutely right! The F-35 is a crap since it will instantly be detected by OTH radars, actually they (OTH radars) are so good that they will even detect the B-61's inside the F-35's weapons bay and track them since the moment that they are loaded inside the F-35's weapons bays until they are intercepted by those magical air defences of yours! And those OTH radars can even tell what is the color of the F-35 pilot's pants and all of this also because there are radars which can detect Mortars!!

Really these Americans and Germans are really pathetic! They should have selected for the nuclear role the magical Rafale and ASMP-A instead which for some magical reason cannot be detected by the same OTH radars and Air Defence radars and systems! Who would have though that the Rafale is stealth to OTH radars and ASMP-A is stealth to both OTH and all Air Defence Radars while the F-35 and its B-61 bomb are not?! Moreover, the ASMP-A is even stealthier or colder/cooler to IR sensors than the B-61 because those spinning rockets that fire for only about 2 seconds or less generate much more heat than a continuously working ramjet which by the way is an engine that works quite similar to a rocket!

Most of us here are really so dumb and pathetic - "Thank god" your highness that you are here to enlighten us all! :roll: :roll: :roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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timmymagic

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Unread post21 Mar 2022, 18:46

What will be interesting will be which munitions the German's will choose for their F-35 fleet. They've got 20bn EUR available from the 100bn EUR funding boost to spend on munitions (which gives you an idea how depleted German stocks are...). A lot will go on Heer munitions, a small amount for the Navy, some on SAM systems and maybe, just maybe some munitions for UCAV's..but they're going to need some for the F-35's and new build Typhoon...

They won't just be toting their B-61/12 all the time...

So the German Air Force weapons that are compatible with F-35...

AIM-120 Amraam (believe its B and C-7)

And errrr...thats it folks...they do also have Paveway II and LJDAM GBU-54 in stock for Tornado, but neither has been cleared for F-35, or appear to be on the list...they'll probably be retained for Typhoon.

I don't think the German's will go to the expense of getting IRIS-T or Taurus KEPD-350 integrated for a fleet of 30-35 aircraft. Current users of some of those systems have shown little interest in paying for it, so unless they club together to fund the integration effort and join a very long list of weapons at the end of the list. Zero chance of any of them being integrated prior to 2030+ even if the decision was made today.

So the German's need a compatible WVR missile, they need a freefall guided munition and probably other munitions...

WVR Missile
- A choice of AIM-9X or ASRAAM Blk VI (also called CSP). - No idea what they'll pick, they favoured a more manoeuverable missile than either 9X or Asraam. But they did also manfacture 9L back in the day. They might pick 9X as its closer to IRIS-T or they may look for a complimentary capability with ASRAAM. ASRAAM being made by MBDA, and being compatible with Typhoon may swing it...

Freefall PGM
- You'd have to think a JDAM variant would be in the front position here given they already use GBU-54. Another option is the GBU-12 as they already use Paveway variants. Don't think it would take a lot to make GBU-12 compatible with Typhoon...but that also means that Paveway IV from the UK becomes a possibility, with zero integration costs for Typhoon. It's already integrated with Typhoon and F-35...

Other Munitions
- Smaller munitions - Also on the cards I suspect. SDB1, SDB2 (Storm Breaker) or Spear. Possible that Spear might get the nod here as it will also be compatible with Typhoon and the Typhoon ECR concept was shown with Spear-EW mounted...
- SEAD/DEAD capability - The German's were developing Armiger, a ramjet powered ARM, a while ago. It got cancelled. But they like ARM's and need to replace HARM. They have ordered AARGM like Italy in small quantities. They're looking at Typhoon as the ECR replacement so it might be that they integrate AARGM in conjunction with Italy (AARGM is not integrated on F-35 and might never be) or Spear & Spear EW get the nod. But I wouldn't discount an AARGM-ER buy for F-35. They could also look at Meteor ARM variants (Both UK and MBDA are investigating this, but its unclear if it relates to the Meteor or AESA equipped JNAAM variant). Again compatibility with both fleets could swing it. Either way costly choices await them, either integrating AARGM with Typhoon for ECR or buying new weapons for F-35...no easy answers on this one.
- Longer ranged munitions - One of the lessons from Ukraine...but the current weapon (Taurus KEPD-350) is very unlikely to be integrated, which realistically leaves JSM and JASSM. Not sure what they'd pick here. JSM would give them a decent air launched AShM capability that they've lacked since Kormoran 2 was retired, JASSM gives them serious land attack capability and range, with the promise of LRASM as well. Honestly no idea, bit of solidarity with Norway or go US..

Additional Munitions
They will get Meteor by default, c2027, as they're purchasing that, in not massive numbers, for Typhoon (I suspect that order will get a big boost presently) so it looks like they're well covered on the BVR missile front.

They could just got the easy route and procure all US weapons, but that leaves them with compatability problems with their main combat fleet of Typhoon in the most part and German defene procurement is a very political issue, they'll want some German involvement...
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Mar 2022, 20:51

timmymagic wrote:AIM-120 Amraam (believe its B and C-7)


It would use the AIM-120C since the -B is an older AMRAAM version that doesn't fit inside the weapons bays because it has bigger fins (than the -C version).


timmymagic wrote:And errrr...thats it folks...they do also have Paveway II and LJDAM GBU-54 in stock for Tornado, but neither has been cleared for F-35, or appear to be on the list...they'll probably be retained for Typhoon.


The F-35 already carries (is already certified/cleared to carry) the Paveway II, namely the GBU-12 and GBU-49.

And the integration of the GBU-54 LJDAM on the F-35 will come very soon as testing to integrate it, is already ongoing:
https://www.wpafb.af.mil/News/Article-D ... er-budget/
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post21 Mar 2022, 22:02

ricnunes wrote:@eloise,

Yes, you're absolutely right! The F-35 is a crap since it will instantly be detected by OTH radars, actually they (OTH radars) are so good that they will even detect the B-61's inside the F-35's weapons bay and track them since the moment that they are loaded inside the F-35's weapons bays until they are intercepted by those magical air defences of yours! And those OTH radars can even tell what is the color of the F-35 pilot's pants and all of this also because there are radars which can detect Mortars!!

Really these Americans and Germans are really pathetic! They should have selected for the nuclear role the magical Rafale and ASMP-A instead which for some magical reason cannot be detected by the same OTH radars and Air Defence radars and systems! Who would have though that the Rafale is stealth to OTH radars and ASMP-A is stealth to both OTH and all Air Defence Radars while the F-35 and its B-61 bomb are not?! Moreover, the ASMP-A is even stealthier or colder/cooler to IR sensors than the B-61 because those spinning rockets that fire for only about 2 seconds or less generate much more heat than a continuously working ramjet which by the way is an engine that works quite similar to a rocket!

Most of us here are really so dumb and pathetic - "Thank god" your highness that you are here to enlighten us all! :roll: :roll: :roll:

My point was to differentiate between missiles and gravity bombs. It is not difficult to show the Rafale as last gen tech. Unable to survive in a modern battlespace. Their idea is to do the F-111 and Tornado mission. Something they gave up 30 years ago in Iraq. To use terrain following radar, to get within range. In a world where there are no AEW&C, or Low Altitude Acquisition Radar.

In a highly classified nuclear world. Where Trump boasted of a secret US nuclear weapon system. That was later confirmed. It is a big step to think the US only have A2G gravity bombs.
Aussie fanboy and part-time astronaut.
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timmymagic

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Unread post21 Mar 2022, 22:15

ricnunes wrote:The F-35 already carries (is already certified/cleared to carry) the Paveway II, namely the GBU-12 and GBU-49.


Don't think they've got 12 or 49's in their stockpile. Think their Paveway II are on the way out like the UK's stockpile (with the exception of a limited number of 12's bought for the Reaper fleet).
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Mar 2022, 02:07

optimist wrote:My point was to differentiate between missiles and gravity bombs. It is not difficult to show the Rafale as last gen tech. Unable to survive in a modern battlespace. Their idea is to do the F-111 and Tornado mission. Something they gave up 30 years ago in Iraq. To use terrain following radar, to get within range. In a world where there are no AEW&C, or Low Altitude Acquisition Radar.

In a highly classified nuclear world. Where Trump boasted of a secret US nuclear weapon system. That was later confirmed. It is a big step to think the US only have A2G gravity bombs.


Yes, I know. And you're right that nuclear deterrence is a layered one with ICBM in one end ("strategic") and weapons like free fall bombs or missiles like the ASMP-A on the other end ("tactical") and potentially with other weapons somewhere in-between.
I believe you can see that this discussion between me (and not only) and eloise is centered (and only so) about the "low end"/"tactical end" of the nuclear deterrence "spectrum" or at least that's how I perceive it (ICBMs for example are outside the scope of this discussion).
eloise thinks that an ASMP-A is harder to detect and harder to shot down than a B-61 or worse even than the F-35/B-61 combo which is obviously ridiculous and preposterous! And that post of mine that you quote was just me telling him/her sarcastically that I'm tired of this discussion. Resuming, I'm tired of trying to convince someone that a white wall is not brown! :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Mar 2022, 02:12

timmymagic wrote:
ricnunes wrote:The F-35 already carries (is already certified/cleared to carry) the Paveway II, namely the GBU-12 and GBU-49.


Don't think they've got 12 or 49's in their stockpile. Think their Paveway II are on the way out like the UK's stockpile (with the exception of a limited number of 12's bought for the Reaper fleet).


Well, I'm not an expert or very knowledgeable about the current German Air Force aerial weaponry stocks, I give you that!

However and after some search, I found this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-l ... USASB0BXQW
BRIEF-Lockheed Martin Awarded $22 Mln For Paveway II Plus Laser-Guided Bombs

Dec 13 (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp:

* LOCKHEED MARTIN AWARDED $22 MILLION FOR PAVEWAY™ II PLUS LASER-GUIDED BOMBS

* LOCKHEED MARTIN SAYS AWARD INCLUDES GUIDANCE KITS AND AIR FOIL GROUPS FOR GBU-12 (500 POUND) CONFIGURATION LGBS, SLATED FOR DELIVERY BY Q4 2019


So it seems that Germany procured GBU-12's quite recently, at least that's how I read it.
And even if this purchase is that one meant for Germany's Reaper fleet that you mentioned then there's nothing that prevents using them on the F-35 too.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post22 Mar 2022, 10:38

ricnunes wrote:
timmymagic wrote:
ricnunes wrote:The F-35 already carries (is already certified/cleared to carry) the Paveway II, namely the GBU-12 and GBU-49.


Don't think they've got 12 or 49's in their stockpile. Think their Paveway II are on the way out like the UK's stockpile (with the exception of a limited number of 12's bought for the Reaper fleet).


Well, I'm not an expert or very knowledgeable about the current German Air Force aerial weaponry stocks, I give you that!

However and after some search, I found this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-l ... USASB0BXQW
BRIEF-Lockheed Martin Awarded $22 Mln For Paveway II Plus Laser-Guided Bombs

Dec 13 (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp:

* LOCKHEED MARTIN AWARDED $22 MILLION FOR PAVEWAY™ II PLUS LASER-GUIDED BOMBS

* LOCKHEED MARTIN SAYS AWARD INCLUDES GUIDANCE KITS AND AIR FOIL GROUPS FOR GBU-12 (500 POUND) CONFIGURATION LGBS, SLATED FOR DELIVERY BY Q4 2019


So it seems that Germany procured GBU-12's quite recently, at least that's how I read it.
And even if this purchase is that one meant for Germany's Reaper fleet that you mentioned then there's nothing that prevents using them on the F-35 too.


Never seen that one. Not seen an integration on Typhoon so it could only be for Tornado.Not a big order either, with test kit, equipment, manuals etc. they're not going to see much more than 100-150 for that money. Definitely not for Reaper, they never actually managed to buy them, they've made do with 5 Heron TP, and they're still not armed. Arming of UCAV's is incredibly still a political hot potato in Germany, they've been causing all sorts of issues around the Euro MALE RPAS that has been in the offing for years...
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Unread post23 Mar 2022, 04:59

eloise wrote:I don't doubt that the mortar tube is hot, just like the barrel of a gun is very hot after fired. But the mortar only spend fraction of a second in there, then the charge ignite and it is launched. You can see how fast mortar leave the tube in this video.


The mortar tube being hot is actually an issue. Mortar tubes have a certain rate of fire, that if exceeded, can "cook off" the mortar as soon as it's dropped in. It's the same with artillery pieces.
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Unread post23 Mar 2022, 12:27

It's not about cooking off a round in the tube, it's about tube stiffness and keeping the tube from blowing out. The integrity of the tube is compromised and so is the aim and increased chances for total catastrophic failure. They mitigate these issues with air or water cooling. Eventually all mortar tubes wear out from fatigue. The reasons for barrel failure are not the same as mortar tube failure, but they do have similar concerns with accuracy when the barrels overheat.
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Unread post23 Mar 2022, 14:04

madrat wrote:It's not about cooking off a round in the tube, it's about tube stiffness and keeping the tube from blowing out.


Mortar rounds do cook off when subjected to tube overheat.
Here:
https://www.army.mil/article/156808/a_r ... ing_ground

For these reasons, YPG recently conducted a rate-of-fire test to verify that the Army's M1061 60mm mortar round could be used at the specified rate of fire without overheating the weapon system. Most YPG mortar tests are conducted remotely, with weapons operators remotely firing with a lanyard system while under protective cover. The realism necessary for this test, however, made that procedure impossible.

Once the test began, the weapons operators performed flawlessly, feeding weapon operator Matt McDaniel round after round and easily achieving the desired rate of fire while experiencing a mere three cook-offs of the 320 wax-filled mortars at the tube.

YPG testers attribute the flawless performance to careful planning, gun crew expertise, and rigorous adherence to safety procedures.

"It was highly successful," said Patchet. "Even when we had the cook-off at the muzzle, the crew knew to remove the round and keep going. As a result, we met the test objective."


Or here:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post22 Apr 2022, 22:20

If the rumors in the EW community are correct, there seems to be a Eurofighter ECR-development and not Growlers, but exactly how they will be equipped and by who is said to be not yet decided. One big problem is time.
Here's an article from JED april -22 issue:
Eurofighter_ECR_JED_2022_04.png
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Unread post22 Apr 2022, 23:26

Well it's a given that they won't be buying just Growlers. So it's either ECR Typhoon with the major benefit of providing domestic jobs. Or later panic solution is offload also that role to the F-35 if the ECR development is bungled.

They can't really afford to mess it up like so many of their other procurement projects. Because it would also affect their future outlook in the Franco-German fighter project.
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Unread post13 Jun 2022, 22:45


The F-35A jets of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) will be based in Büchel, in the Eifel region of western Germany.

The Bundeswehr (the armed forces of the Federal Republic of Germany) have decided that all the new F-35A stealth jets destined to the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) will be stationed at Büchel Air Base.

Citing a spokesman of the Bundeswehr, Südwestrundfunk, a regional public broadcasting corporation serving the southwest of Germany, reported that the 5th generation aircraft will be based at the airfield in the Eifel region, in the western part of Germany, after the planned renovation works of the runway in Büchel. The construction work, costing around 170 million euros, is expected to be completed in February 2026.


https://theaviationist.com/2022/06/13/g ... to-buchel/
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