Germany may reconsider Tornado replacement options (F-35)

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

timmymagic

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 19:48

Unread post15 Jun 2022, 22:02

basher54321 wrote:

The F-35A jets of the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) will be based in Büchel, in the Eifel region of western Germany.

The Bundeswehr (the armed forces of the Federal Republic of Germany) have decided that all the new F-35A stealth jets destined to the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) will be stationed at Büchel Air Base.

Citing a spokesman of the Bundeswehr, Südwestrundfunk, a regional public broadcasting corporation serving the southwest of Germany, reported that the 5th generation aircraft will be based at the airfield in the Eifel region, in the western part of Germany, after the planned renovation works of the runway in Büchel. The construction work, costing around 170 million euros, is expected to be completed in February 2026.


https://theaviationist.com/2022/06/13/g ... to-buchel/


Think it will cost a fair bit more than 170m EUR to get the base set up. Marham cost c£500m and was a base for Tornado's just like Buchel...
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 27642
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post21 Jun 2022, 22:28

ILA 2022: Germany continues impressive sales run for F-35
21 Jun 2022 Gareth Jennings

"Germany's recent volte-face on procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) was the latest step in what continues to be an impressive 100% sales record for the platform in international competitions.

Having previously discounted the US-made ‘stealth fighter' on political grounds, Berlin announced in March that it had selected the F-35 to partially replace the Luftwaffe's fleet of Panavia Tornados. This decision, which was followed days later by a similar pronouncement from Canada for its future fighter requirement, meant that [the] fifth-generation aircraft has so far secured every single international competition for which it has been offered.

According to the Bundeswehr announcement on 14 March, the Luftwaffe is set to receive more than 35 F-35As to satisfy the nuclear mission required of the Tornado successor, with the remainder of the 85-aircraft requirement likely to be taken up by additional Eurofighters that will also satisfy a separate but related NATO electronic attack requirement in a new Electronic Combat Role (ECR) version...."

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air- ... n-for-f-35
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

jessmo112

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 808
  • Joined: 16 Mar 2020, 02:09
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post22 Jun 2022, 03:22

A few things come to mind in this thread.

1. I cannot describe with words what the Russian invasion has done to line the pockets of the military industrial complex. I am only disappointed that I didn't buy Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon or who ever makes stinger missiles stock.

2. Saab, Euro-fighter and Dassault made a very big blunder in fighting the F-35 all of these years, with old tech. Why didn't they build a Euro canard with internal bays? Did they really bet on Russia not being a threat?
It's even worse when you consider that the blunder wasn't made by 1 company, but a few.

3. So now we have basically given lockeedca monopoly on the western 5th generation fighter market.
It should have been clear years ago that this was the trend. Personally I would love to see a competitive design come out of the west. Europe dropped the ball.
I had better get that Lockeed stock before China invades.
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3310
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post22 Jun 2022, 04:57

"So now we have basically given lockeedca monopoly"

Who's "we"?

Lockheed Martin saw the future, h*ll, they MADE the future, and worked their @sses off to bring world-beating products to market. Where's the "given" part? I'm not getting it.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4189
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post22 Jun 2022, 13:18

jessmo112 wrote:2. Saab, Euro-fighter and Dassault made a very big blunder in fighting the F-35 all of these years, with old tech. Why didn't they build a Euro canard with internal bays? Did they really bet on Russia not being a threat?
It's even worse when you consider that the blunder wasn't made by 1 company, but a few.


I don't see this has much as a lack of foreseeing the inevitable need to develop, build and move into 5th gen fighter aircraft by the European companies but instead this fault falls on European governments side instead.
You see, nowadays fighter aircraft (even the older 4th gen) are very complex and expensive to developed and currently fighter aircraft are only developed if/when a country/government or countries/governments decide to develop one. Resuming the vast majority of development funds come from the government(s) without any exception. BTW, this also happened and is happening with the JSF/F-35. If we look at the F-35 we can clearly see that it wasn't a simple case of LM presenting/developing the aircraft and the US government accepting it. It was the US government that launched the program called JSF and from all companies that participated in it, LM won and the F-35 was thus developed.
Note that for example Boeing (a US company) also doesn't have any 5th gen fighter aircraft just like the European companies that you mentioned despite have competed in the JSF program.

So and again the problem seems to be all in the European governments/countries side and not so much on the European companies side since they can only develop 5th gen fighter aircraft if requested and funded by the respective governments. And here comes the main origin of this problem: It was perceived and very wrongfully so by the general western/European population (who votes and supports their governments) that full scale conventional warfare against a near-peer enemy was a thing of the past and counter-insurgency conflicts (Afghanistan for example) or limited "conventional" operations against an inferior enemy (Libya for example) would be the future of warfare and as such existing 4th gen fighter aircraft would be "more than enough"! Oh boy, these people were dead wrong and IMO as expected since history has this "nasty trend" of repeating itself over and over in an infinite loop!

Resuming, the European governments should have launched their "JSF" programs more than a decade ago but they didn't and now they are trying to cut their loses by trying to launch programs like Tempest or FCAS...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4911
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post24 Jun 2022, 15:13

jessmo112 wrote:A few things come to mind in this thread.

1. I cannot describe with words what the Russian invasion has done to line the pockets of the military industrial complex. I am only disappointed that I didn't buy Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon or who ever makes stinger missiles stock.

2. Saab, Euro-fighter and Dassault made a very big blunder in fighting the F-35 all of these years, with old tech. Why didn't they build a Euro canard with internal bays? Did they really bet on Russia not being a threat?
It's even worse when you consider that the blunder wasn't made by 1 company, but a few.

3. So now we have basically given lockeedca monopoly on the western 5th generation fighter market.
It should have been clear years ago that this was the trend. Personally I would love to see a competitive design come out of the west. Europe dropped the ball.
I had better get that Lockeed stock before China invades.


With respect to #3, it gets even better (or worse, if you're LMT's competitor) - there are strong rumors/indicators NGAD will be a Lockheed bird. If you think about it, they have a nice chunk of the past (F-16V business), the present (F-35) and the future (F-35, for the next 30 years) + NGAD + whatever their Skunk Works division is being given oodles of $ to develop. And that doesn't count the AIM-260, Javelin and untold other weapons systems.

I bought them way back in 2006, when the F-35 looked dicey but I was convinced some day it'd be a winner. They're reasonably priced now IMO, still have massive upside (for all the aforementioned reasons, plus others) and even if LMT stays down for awhile, you can collect/re-invest a handsome dividend. You're absolutely right about 1 thing - Putin has virtually assured most US defense contractors big business. They should do really well, even absent any further military moves on Russia's part..
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 27642
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post28 Jul 2022, 21:20

GERMANY – F-35 AIRCRAFT AND MUNITIONS
28 Jul 2022 DSCA

"WASHINGTON, July 28, 2022 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Germany of F-35 Aircraft, Munitions, and related equipment for an estimated cost of $8.4 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Germany has requested to buy thirty-five (35) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft; thirty-seven (37) Pratt & Whitney F135-PW-100 engines (35 installed, 2 spares); one hundred five (105) AIM-120C-8 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); four (4) AIM-120C-8 AMRAAM Guidance Sections; seventy-five (75) AGM-158B/B2 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles-Extended Range (JASSM-ER); two (2) AGM-158 Inert JASSMs with Test Instrumentation Kits (TIK); two (2) AGM-158 JASSM Separation Test Vehicles (STV); three hundred fortyfour (344) GBU-53 Small Diameter Bombs (SDB-II); three (3) GBU-53 SDB-II Guided Test Vehicles (GTV); eight (8) GBU-53 SDB-II Captive Carry Reliability Trainers (CCRT); one hundred sixty-two (162) BLU-109 2000LB Hardened Penetrator Bombs for GBU-31; two hundred sixty four (264) MK-82 500LB General Purpose (GP) Bombs for GBU-54; six (6) MK-82 Inert Filled GP Bombs; thirty (30) BLU-109 Inert 2000LB Hardened Penetrator Bombs; one hundred eighty (180) KMU-557 Joint Direct-Attack Munition (JDAM) Tail Kits for GBU-31; two hundred forty-six (246) KMU-572 JDAM Tail Kits for GBU-54; seventy-five (75) AIM-9X Block II+ Tactical Sidewinder Missiles; thirty (30) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM); fifteen (15) Tactical AIM-9X Block II+ Sidewinder Guidance Control Units; and five (5) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder CATM Guidance Units. Also included are AIM-120 control sections, propulsion sections, telemetry systems, warheads, and containers; AIM-120 CATMs; AIM-9 Active Optical Target Detectors and containers; FMU-139 joint programmable fuzes; DSU-38 Laser-Illuminated Target Detectors for GBU-54; AN/PYQ-10 Simple Key Loaders; Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) and ADU-891/E Adapter Group Computer Test Sets; KGV-135A embedded secure communications devices; Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); impulse cartridges, chaff, and flares; Full Mission Simulators and system trainers; training missiles and components; electronic warfare systems and Reprogramming Lab support; logistics management and support systems; threat detection, tracking, and targeting systems; Contractor Logistics Support (CLS); classified software and software development, delivery and integration support; transportation, ferry, and refueling support; weapons containers; aircraft and munitions support and support equipment; integration and test support and equipment; aircraft engine component improvement program (CIP) support; secure communications, precision navigation, and cryptographic systems and equipment; Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) equipment; spare and repair parts, consumables, and accessories, and repair and return support; minor modifications, maintenance, and maintenance support; personnel training and training equipment; classified and unclassified publications and technical documents; warranties; and U.S. Government and engineering, technical, and logistics support services, studies and surveys, as well as other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated total cost is $8.4 billion.

This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by improving thesecurity of a NATO ally that is an important force for political and economic stability in Europe.

The proposed sale will improve Germany’s capability to meet current and future threats by providing a suitable replacement for Germany’s retiring Tornado aircraft fleet in support of NATO’s nuclear sharing mission, the centerpiece for deterrence in Europe. Germany will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment and services into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The principal contractors will be Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX; Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, CT; The Boeing Company, St. Charles, MO; and Raytheon Missiles and Defense, Tucson, AZ. The purchaser typically requests offsets. Any offset agreement will be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and the contractor.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to Germany.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law. The description and dollar value is for the highest estimated quantity and dollar value based on initial requirements. Actual dollar value will be lower depending on final requirements, budget authority, and signed sales agreement(s), if and when concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov. "

Source: https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major- ... -munitions
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

jessmo112

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 808
  • Joined: 16 Mar 2020, 02:09
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post30 Jul 2022, 08:32

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/07 ... o-germany/

So it looks like things are on a fast track.
Can someone help me with a question?
Do jets set aside for the nuclear strike missions get normal patrol missions? For instance would they be tasked normal CAP or maybe an escort mission chasing Russian bombers? Do they get rotated to expeditionary deployment? Or do they only sit and train dayvand night fir the nuclear mission?
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4189
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post30 Jul 2022, 15:24

jessmo112 wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/07/29/state-department-approves-84-billion-f-35-sale-to-germany/

So it looks like things are on a fast track.
Can someone help me with a question?
Do jets set aside for the nuclear strike missions get normal patrol missions? For instance would they be tasked normal CAP or maybe an escort mission chasing Russian bombers? Do they get rotated to expeditionary deployment? Or do they only sit and train dayvand night fir the nuclear mission?


If you look/read Spaz's post you'll see that the F-35 request includes not only the aircraft and aircraft associated stuff/parts (such as engines including two spares) but also lots of conventional air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons such as AIM-120C, AIM-120D, AIM-9X, GBU-53 SDBII, GBU-54 JDAM, etc... so it's more than safe to assume that German F-35's will do all sorts of conventional air-to-air and air-to-ground missions and not only Nuclear strike roles.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1857
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post02 Aug 2022, 01:09

ricnunes wrote:... so it's more than safe to assume that German F-35's will do all sorts of conventional air-to-air and air-to-ground missions and not only Nuclear strike roles.


I think it's safe to say it'll never be used in a nuclear strike role. :wink:

And that they'll more than double the number acquired.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8791
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post02 Aug 2022, 02:31

This has to improve the chances that Spain will also break down and buy the F-35! :|
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1593
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post02 Aug 2022, 10:24

Here is hoping the German military can keep these aircraft in proper working order. I remember a few years back reading how at one point the German Air Force only had 3 Typhoons that was listed at full operational status and that during an exercise their soldiers were forced to use painted broom sticks in place of fake rifles. I would hate to see that happen to the F-35. No doubt the current Ukraine Russia war has shocked Germany out of its self induced coma. Now all they have to do now is stop relying on Russian petrol as means of energy.
Offline

timmymagic

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 19:48

Unread post03 Aug 2022, 20:47

ricnunes wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/07/29/state-department-approves-84-billion-f-35-sale-to-germany/

So it looks like things are on a fast track.
Can someone help me with a question?
Do jets set aside for the nuclear strike missions get normal patrol missions? For instance would they be tasked normal CAP or maybe an escort mission chasing Russian bombers? Do they get rotated to expeditionary deployment? Or do they only sit and train dayvand night fir the nuclear mission?


If you look/read Spaz's post you'll see that the F-35 request includes not only the aircraft and aircraft associated stuff/parts (such as engines including two spares) but also lots of conventional air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons such as AIM-120C, AIM-120D, AIM-9X, GBU-53 SDBII, GBU-54 JDAM, etc... so it's more than safe to assume that German F-35's will do all sorts of conventional air-to-air and air-to-ground missions and not only Nuclear strike roles.


No AIM-120D for Germany. They're requesting C-8. What is now Aim-120D was, 5+ years ago, called C-8. But C-8 now is a a AIM-120C-7 with F3R upgrades. It appears the full AIM-120D-3 version is US and Five Eyes only...(UK and Australia have ordered and Canada was considering it).
Previous

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: usafr and 13 guests